A former political prisoner and dissident, Ukrainian psychiatrist Semyon Gluzman in the first part of an interview with “Apostrophe” explains why criticizing the health reform initiated by the Ministry of health, how has the Ukrainian mentality after the Maidan, and why the government is more imitates the fight against corruption than actually withstands it.
Recently deputies actually launched medical reform, having voted for the bill No. 6327, reform which you have repeatedly criticized. Why?
— In fact, for a long time it was necessary to do madrepora. It did not, in my opinion, for simple reasons: the political will depends on a few people in the country, and they absolutely do not care about how we feel in our hospitals, they are not treated here. And when, responding to a direct question that first needs to be done to it is changed, I proposed legislation prohibiting the President, all members of Parliament and their families to be treated abroad. But I say that, knowing that it will not. And what is happening today, again, does not concern them, they will not be treated by the old family doctor, who is already hard of hearing and poor vision.
You know, reform is not to change one link. Of course, you can give a piece of sausage for poor people and say it’s reform. What is happening now is a conditional piece of sausage.
I have a lot of complaints about the public health system in Ukraine, and I have expressed. I still had some hope, oddly enough, during Yanukovych when Akimova (Iryna Akimova, the former first Deputy head of the AP — “Apostrophe”) led a group of reform, I’m somewhere at the side with full sun was there too. The reform was then written correctly, though in detail it was possible to disagree.
You know, in a fairy tale you can pull yourself out of a swamp by his own hair, but it’s a fairy tale, but in real life it does not happen. The Ministry, any, cannot be reformed simply because it is not interested in this are created for this particular group.
Then for reform had selected several pilot regions, so that if suddenly there will be mistakes, it was possible to fix them. What now? And now Suprun (acting Minister of health Suprun — “Apostrophe”) announces that the pilot project is the whole of Ukraine. And if there are any mistakes, they will be throughout the system… it should not be. I understand that behind her is the President, because we need to fulfill the promises of the Western partners, but due to the destruction of the entire system to fulfill the promises impossible.
Why such a barrage of criticism from serious experts in the direction of Suprun and her wild team? I do believe that they are wild, they don’t think about the consequences, they throw themselves at the object and think that they defeated him. In fact, affected the whole system. Yes, as long as demagoguery, promises can be fooled for some time, but when people begin to understand and it all collapses, it will not be here, and we’ll stay. And if I actively oppose these attempts to fake reforms, then I do it out of fear, out of fear for the future of the system and ordinary people.
— Most often in the context of this medical reform criticized the so-called new rule that “money will follow the patient”, that is, the patient can be treated in any health facility, and not only at the place of residence. How this innovation will really facilitate the Ukrainians receive medical care?
— Theoretically, of course, is as it should be, if we want to become a civilized European country. But it’s one thing to summon rain, and another thing — wait shed or not shed. You can endlessly say such words that say these young guys from her team, but it doesn’t change anything, it’s demagoguery. The system suddenly break down easily, but the money the customer will not go.
Under this reform lies the purpose of privatization of everything. I was against the Soviets, I say, have had very serious disagreements, but I never was a man who wanted to destroy the entire health care system due to the fact that I had a conflict.
My main complaint is that the Ministry should not cook and do the reform, because a group of reformers is not the doctors, they’re lawyers, they are economists, and doctors should provide Advisory functions. This is done in all normal countries. And my another complaint is education. If we don’t change the education system, if such a horror will continue, we can call ourselves astronauts, family doctors, anyone, but from the name, nothing will change.
— If maareformi so critical, why continue to push it? And who benefits from it? Once you mentioned that it does not happen without the connivance of Petro Poroshenko.
I can’t suspect our President of all sins. I have no reason to believe that he was this fat. My claim is different: I would like to me and all of us at least partially explained what happens with the reform, why is the pressure on Parliament deputies to be sure to vote for it. But most importantly, what does he care? As I understand it, this is another billion that will give Western partners, and when I could not care less.
— Why do you think the reform was entrusted to do not the Minister and the acting? Why Suprun still with the prefix acting, if she supports the President?
— I asked this question a few months ago, his friend the Deputy, she’s not from “Blok Petro Poroshenko”, to think for themselves. She laughed and said, “Because you don’t vote for it.” Although it is possible to understand how this Vinnytsa young man, our Prime Minister really want to become a Minister. But he holds onto her because he has no choice, he should support it, just as he should support pension reform and so on.
— You also repeatedly criticized the personnel policy of the current Ukrainian authorities. Why, do you think the key positions in Ukraine like to appoint foreigners, the same Suprun is an American citizen (July 2015 Suprun received Ukrainian citizenship), but this was Georgian Alexander Kvitashvili, you can still remember a number of officials-foreigners: Eka Zguladze, Khatia Dekanoidze, aivaras Abromavicius…
— Perhaps Peter thinks that it is necessary to infuse fresh blood. But he is not a doctor and does not understand that the reaction can be the opposite of what one would expect: people may die if the blood before it is not checked.
But if seriously, it is an absolute contempt for their own country and its population. But it’s not the nationality… the Problem is the lack of understanding of the system, because the Minister is a senior Manager who should fulfil the laws, those regulations, which give it the Constitution, the law on healthcare — industry-specific laws (several) and a lot of regulations, all of which should be performed strictly.
I know a lot of good professionals, managers in health care, some of them were already in power with other Ministers, some of them, by the way, not the doctors. Yeah, maybe one of them was involved in some corruption schemes, but, excuse me, but in the same presidential Administration all pure? The fight against corruption, in my subjective opinion, cannot be the sole determinant, bad man or good.
But I want the personnel decisions were made at least some kind of coordination with the medical community, not with NGOs, fictitious or activists. Returning to the personnel policy, I’d like to eventually focus all their class anger on one issue: how are decisions made in the appointment of Ministers of health? I want to have been named the names of the people who gave this advice to the President. Why did not consult with the medical community? Otherwise, we’re just an authoritarian country… And we’re going to this. To the fact that the President and his advisers in the face of his administration will make all sorts of decisions. I don’t want to live in such a country. And I am sure that Ukraine — not Russia, quoting our second President, No doubt that Peter fortunately did not succeed. But if the citizens of Ukraine don’t understand what I now argue, they will be responsible for their misunderstanding.
— Continuing the topic of medicine, one of the sensational news, which announced the people’s Deputy and head of the steering Committee Olga Bogomolets: graduates who scored less than 150 points in EIT, you still get the chance to study for doctors. The Internet immediately began to discuss what is needed for additional pumping money from careless students. Do you think how disastrous may be the results of such decisions?
— I am afraid of something to say, because there is always this struggle there are some undercover passion. But in my field, psychiatry, I see a lot when I travel and talk with people. And what I see, I say out loud for a long time: when the average psychiatrist working in the hospital, intellectually superior Professor or an associate Professor in the Department is awful. But every five years doctors forced to go to the Department and to increase the level of knowledge. And they tell me: “Simon fishelevich, what’s the point if all they tell me know?” And sometimes just talking nonsense, because there are poorly educated teachers. And to begin with it needs. And the same lady Suprun decided to start with the graduates. Let’s do the exams graduates by American standards. Why us? Why not Albanian, new Zealand? But she wanted, because she’s American. What if the next Minister will be from Albania, he will want to do everything by Albanian standards. Why in the vast majority of countries, even less developed African, people who finished their universities medical faculties, have the right to work after anywhere? Because they get adequate knowledge. I am familiar with the two African Ministers of health, is intelligent people, with a University education, and I knew most of our Ministers: this globacnik!
Now from the medicine will pass to the socio-political processes… How much has changed, as you see, the Ukrainian mentality after the Maidan? And how influenced the attitudes of Ukrainians to the events in the Donbass, in Crimea?
— I think that a significant part of the Ukrainian people after the Maidan felt let not joy, but hope. The joy we experienced after the first Maidan, because that was the joy of hope. And the President, whom we elected, albeit not a very good way… to Blame for this, by the way, Mr. Kuchma, who wanted to sit third or fourth time. Thought: “While I live, I will be President.” Thank God that it was then, during the protests, persuaded not to bleed, and it’s a different story. I was told by Western politicians, who spoke with our oligarchs and demonstrated their awareness of who is where and what the account holds of them, and explained what would happen if blood is spilled, it affects and son-in-law of Kuchma. I went back in order to make it easier to understand the events now. Yushchenko turned out to be absolutely untenable, and then once it became clear that his hands are not entirely clean. But first was really serious hope.
And the second independence was the fault of the advisers of Yanukovych. Incidentally, I was familiar with Yanukovych, I was a member of the public Council under it. I went there despite the screams of my friends and relatives who have asked me why I was going and why. But I went, because I was hoping that somehow it will affect the health care system, something he will hear. But then I stopped going, though rewards were offered… by the Way, I’m one of the well-known Ukrainian dissidents, which has no state awards, and I’m happy and independent. There was an attempt once to give me, called me, but I said, “You want me to publicly refuse?” The matter ended there.
Returning to the Maidan… All could have ended differently, when there was a student demonstration. First, these children were not to blame, that Azarov from morning to evening quite a long time said that we go to Europe. Then one of close to Yanukovych consultants explained to me that there was a call from Moscow, Vladimir Putin, who has explained what will happen if they do. And Yanukovych was very obedient.
But when a student brawl occurred, it was possible to avoid such blood. And needed. And for a while he would still remain the legitimate President, and we would live as we lived before. Of course, the collapse of the economy happened, and some reaction would be, but maybe wouldn’t be so bloody. But something happened that happened.
I’m on the Maidan has not lived, but I have been there and wore sausage, cheese, bread, the so-called gentleman’s set. I met two ladies from Zaporozhye, and I said, “what are you doing here? Why do you come here every Saturday and Sunday?” And they replied that they have children who complete school, and when they saw on TV fragments of what happened with the students, I realized that I should participate in the protection of their future students, their children.
But there is another side of the coin, we need to talk not only about students but also about the casualties on the other side. They, of course, is much less, but still they are citizens of Ukraine, deceived. It’s not the scum who came from different cities, the so-called “athletes”, it was forced by the soldiers. So I think the end of this independence was more bitter. Not only for me but for many other people. And hope was, because I saw the people of Ukraine tried to drive those three or four politicians who stood on the Maidan stage, and I thought people had matured, that the people will not allow a repeat of history, that society will not allow politicians to live for themselves, but apparently not. And it’s terrible, because there will be consequences, the country is awash with weapons.
But, on the other hand, when the war began, a huge number of businessmen and not businessmen began to send everything he could, and it also says that we are normal European people. And who would have us governed, we are better than those in power. But we have no way to monitor them every day, because we go to the polls, believing that we chose — and then they must act. And act we must, and they should be afraid of us. I want the government afraid of me, not Vice versa. Even in Latin American countries there is a punishment for sin, and trial judge. And what have we? We have a crazy series of procedural Committee we the whole country is now watching. And no one sits.
In this case, has there been any changes to Ukraine after the new government? You are still in the time of Yanukovych wrote a critical column in relation to that power, and now I write. It turns out that with the advent of Poroshenko especially nothing has changed?
Change some. But this is happening because the people changed little. That’s where we differ from Russia and similar countries? We mistreat those whom we elect, we don’t love them, we despised them, hated some, and in Russia — no. And there is a very significant mentality difference, we’re different, we’re that much closer to what is called the European mentality, although there is also a different country. But we hate them, and how to make them fear us, those whom we elect? Because the psychology of those whom we elected, about the same, well, Fuckers, you chose me — now I’m going to do their business, and you will do what I want. And it’s not only the President thinks so, but all our politicians.
— Still often you can hear that you don’t see change for the better. But in Ukraine there took place a reform of the police, has set up several anti-corruption structures, the same NABOO, SAP… As you see, the benefit of Ukraine?
Is such imitation of change. You see at least one camera, which sits at least one of the former politicians? All this wrestling imitation. Another thing is that imitation can sometimes escalate into real steps. This can be seen on the hidden struggle of the President with NABOO.
If you could go back again, after our independence, I think that corruption has seriously started a new Leonid Kuchma, he had very bad advisors, was the chief Dmytro Tabachnyk, the notorious head of the administration. And then started the build of the oligarchy. But what is now our President — so it destroys the basics of a legal state, rule of law, which there was. Does he do it consciously? Well, he’s a smart man, he’s not illiterate Yanukovych, he understands everything, just think that it would be able to protect yourself, your family and to go somewhere in Spain, where, as it turned out, his property.