The second day of the 27th Economic forum in Polish Krynica-zdrój opened with the panel discussion, which brought together real sell-out “Policy. A question of values or interests?”. Was sold out because it was attended by the Prime Minister of Poland Beata Szydlo and the third President of independent Ukraine Viktor Yushchenko. At first everyone tried to talk about what policy is, how it should serve the interests of the people and how to overcome the contradictions that often arise between the government and the opposition. But we should not forget that in authoritarian countries such as Russia, politics is a way of holding power in the same hands. And quite often, given Moscow’s Imperial ambitions, the policy applies to other countries.
Possible if not for the speech of Viktor Yushchenko and his words about Russian aggression and political project “Nord stream-2”, from which can not refuse in some European capitals, about the Ukraine, no one would have thought. But this issue was supported by the Polish Prime Minister, although our relations are not very good period. Yeah, after a meeting with Marshal of Polish Sejm Marek Kuczynski on the sidelines of the Economic forum, the speaker of the Verkhovna Rada Andriy Parubiy assured that the new designs of Polish passports there will be no image of the Memorial Eaglets in Lviv.
But, in the panel discussion dedicated to Ukrainian-Polish relations, Polish experts and politicians did not miss the opportunity to speculate on the subject of historical past. Recall the statement of the head of the Polish foreign Minister Witold Waszczykowski and head of the ruling party of Poland “law and Justice” Jaroslaw Kaczynski that Bandera and the UPA in Ukraine to the EU do not wait. But the truth is that the current Polish government is actively speculated on this topic in his election campaign. So such statements Waszczykowski and Kaczynski are geared more for domestic consumers.
But, anyway, they still affect the agenda of bilateral relations. Victor Yushchenko during his presidency, he initiated the rapprochement between Ukraine and Poland. That he, in principle, were implemented. Now, as we can see, Warsaw is moving in a completely different fairway. “Today,” questioned Victor Yushchenko about who really spoil bilateral relations, what to do with the historical past and how to deal with ambiguous policy of Europe, “Nord stream-2”.
– 27-m an Economic forum in Krynica is a lot of talk about the difficult period of Polish-Ukrainian relations. But, in my opinion, Ukraine is not their spoils. We regularly hear from Polish politicians that our interpretation of history, we in the EU do not wait.
– Understand why some poles with Piłsudski (józef Pilsudski, the first head of the revived Polish state and the founder of the Polish army – Ed.) there is a place in the new Europe, and the Ukrainians with the leaders of the national liberation movement, or are we talking about Petlyura, or are we talking about Bandera, or are we talking about Mazepa. We are told that with your national leaders in Europe has no place. I think it’s deeply flawed, low and wrong of the question. It seems to me that the policy, which is found today in Poland, in the Polish ruling party, to which I very properly belong, because it is the party, which was my friend Lech Kaczynski, who conducted a brilliant, modern European politics, which led us to the closest Ukrainian-Polish relations… There we find the answers to all the questions. Indeed, I give myself the report that we had a complicated past. And it’s not the past that was forgotten, and remained only in books and Chronicles.
Ask Leonid Kravchuk, who was born then under Polish rule, his mother worked the pole, what it was called, what are some “joys” that relationship was built. It’s real people. My arguments will not replace the impression formed from the fact that this is someone who survived and was a direct witness to these relations. It was rough, very difficult, are often very shameful relationship.
I understand that there are many living bearers of these relations, which are easy to this audit do not, nor Polish, nor Ukrainian side. So, I was convinced that the policy which we have done, the historic confession of the historic forgiveness of historical reconciliation, conducted through the Parliament and the diet, I think it was a brilliant policy, which responded to many calls that were in previous historical periods.
– Yes, You were the initiator of the rapprochement between Ukraine and Poland. But, in my opinion, our state is going in the opposite direction.
For the past two years, came the revision of these relations and it demeans me as one of the authors of the cohesion policy, which lined up before. Humiliating why? I think a large part of the poles, can’t understand a fairly simple truth. During the Second world war in the same area had two of the liberation movement. Polish, which was led by the home army. For the poles, they are heroes. The poles have reconciled them with the army Ludovit, they are all now sitting in the front row, and they are the heroes of Poland. From the Ukrainian side this movement was led by the Ukrainian insurgent army. As you know, Bandera a single day in the war, no one fought, he was in a concentration camp. So, to say that Bandera is the Ukrainian liberation movement was not so, it means not to understand the right of Nations to self-determination. Millions of Ukrainians, members or not members of the rebel army wanted one thing – to have their own independent state. Who is banned? Just like the Polish side. It is believed that this is her territory, that the territory was born the movement that was intended to liberate Poland from Soviet influence and to make it independent. So excuse me, why are we with the same methods, the same purpose is one movement of respect and elevate it to Holy that I, for example, I know, but why not entitle me or my fellow countrymen so proudly, clearly, unambiguously to talk about the greatness of the Ukrainian liberation movement?
– That is, statements by Kaczynski and Waszczykowski more focused on domestic consumers?
– I think it is, if you remember the campaign, where did this thesis on the definition of genocide, the UPA, etc… This is the kit that was prepared three years ago during the Polish elections. I repeat again, it’s a shame that the Ukrainian liberation uprising, the question of the Ukrainian liberation movement is not equal to the principles of equal assessment, as a similar question, for example, Poland. And I am convinced, the actions of Stepan Bandera, if you carefully monitor them, and the action of Pilsudski and you will see the same harm. And therefore Pilsudski was sentenced, sat in a Russian prison for the assassination of the Emperor and terrorism. Many steps that were made by the home army, or army of the Rebel – steps that are hard to comment on. Indeed, we understand neither the first nor the second heroes on the water did not go – they were not saints. But now we’re talking about things that are Holy for us. The sovereignty, the independence, the creation of independent States for each member nation Holy theme. And sorry, I will always be proud of the people who put this issue on the agenda, fought, gave lives. I understand the poles, who likewise refer to their national question. But I require to my senses, the Holy feelings of national formation, the creation of a sovereign Ukrainian state, similarly treated and other.
– If there’s a hand of Moscow?
– I would say there is a huge interest of Moscow. When the fighting between Ukrainians and poles, of course, Moscow is hard at work, she strongly supports the Polish political movement, and the Ukrainian social and political movements that it has bloomed. Therefore, there is the theme of the Ruthenians, for example, that “fertilized” (who live in Transcarpathia, the Russian press writes regularly as they demand autonomy from Ukraine – Ed.) when there is the Romanian question and the resolution that was recently adopted in the Romanian community (about the alleged autonomy of the Romanians in Bukovina also regularly writes Russian propaganda – Ed.). In other words, Moscow is playing on this score. It is most weakens the national consolidation of the Ukrainian and relationships with our strategic partners.
– Do You see Ukraine in a new initiative the “Three seas” of Croatia and Poland? In Warsaw at the beginning of July this year was the summit Trimera, which has granted himself the tramp. And Ukraine was not invited.
– This initiative has a long tradition and around whom there is a leading Polish mission. And so this initiative is, of course, Polish-centric. She invites the circle of the hand, which at first perhaps we should agree on the basic acceptances of this policy. Of course, without Ukraine no East initiative can’t work. It seems to me that the truth is to seek a somewhat different initiative. Somewhere around a year ago, three of the Ukrainian President, three Polish President has initiated Baltic-black sea platform. The point I expressed I was looking for allies, and so I can easily comment on these motivations. Let’s look at Eastern Europe. 23 years ago there was not a single conflict. Of the seven conflicts that exist today in Europe, six in Eastern Europe. You can ask the question, what happens to us? For truth to say, Eastern Europe has become a zone of instability. And a big political mistake the origins of this destabilization to look for in the national context of the problem. And therefore I will never accept the interpretation that what is happening in the East of Ukraine is the Ukrainian question. Or what is happening in Transnistria is the Moldovan question. Or the fact that in Georgia, or Azerbaijan, is a Georgian and Azerbaijani respectively question. No. In fact, if you look at one occupant – Russia. Why is it then not called “Russian question”? Because the problem is not Zakharchenko, the problem is not Carpentry. We understand that Zakharchenko is not a source of war. That Zakharchenko is not a source of aggression. It is a puppet that is not worth wasting time. Let’s decide, or we the bag beat, or donkey, or wagon, or by horse.
– Then tomorrow Russia can easily attack someone else…
– If we understand this causal relationship, she easily deduces that in fact we in Eastern Europe have not the Ukrainian issue and not some other. We have a geopolitical question. It is a conflict of two opposing policies – of the Russian Imperial and European democracy. However, on the agenda today is Ukraine, yesterday was Georgia, the day before yesterday, Transnistria and Azerbaijan. Who’s next? That anyone. When we talk about asymmetric war, which manifests itself not only in the military sense, tomorrow it can manifest itself in a media attack, Church attack, it can manifest itself in someone else’s election, etc. to Fight today, it is not necessary that the tanks crawled barbed wire national boundaries. Today, thousands of miles away can effectively devastating war. So I say all the time: don’t ask who’s next. You’re up next. Each, or Portuguese, or German. We live in a time that distance has nothing to do with the theme of war as such. And so let’s try, if we understand the challenge that we had to collect from the Baltic to the Black sea to the Caspian sea politicians who had the experience, his political career, they look at the current situation in Europe? Can we come to a shared diagnosis of what is happening? Where is the source? More than 15 presidents of Eastern Europe today are working on the overall context of the assessment of what is happening to us. And most importantly – plan – how we would like that the United Nations, United Europe and, indeed, other countries involved came to a common plan of action.
– But what to press then? What a sick point of Russia?
What is wary of Putin? I think he is wary of two things. The first thing – the consolidated reaction of their own people to the demons policy, which he conducts. But given that Russia has a whole system of attacks on human psychology, I think such an awakening soon.
– Presidential elections in Russia. How do you think, will Putin at the next escalation in Ukraine in pursuit of political points? Or him best of the status quo?
– I think on the agenda it’ll get really unproductive and artificial issues that will work in the minds of Russians. The Russians, who often professes slavery, or its worst form – feudalism. That don’t breathe freedom, mentally ready for a lot of victims. They do not need freedom. They needed a king. This is the 21st century, but there is such a philosophy. And we almost cannot deal. This mentality, which I think works poorly for Russia, and Putin’s policy, I think, does a disservice to Russia. But there is one thing he is wary. The thing that more depends on us. It is the solidarity of Europe, in particular, and the world for the policy which he holds. As a policy threat.
– At the panel discussion You said that this is not Europe economically dependent on Russia, and Russia from Europe. Why Europe will not make additional steps, not punished.
– If Russia 82% of generation of energy products that it manufactures and sells in Europe, and Europe only 30% of buys from Russia, can I ask a question? So after all, who depends on whom? Russia is totally dependent on Europe. But when we’re talking about how to settle the Russian plan for Eastern Ukraine, as to restrain Russian aggression, to speak not only about military method, not only on the diplomatic method, and a bit of talk about the economic and, to speak a little about the financial, have a little talk about the humanitarian… After all it affects, no odnogolosy or any one of the complex, where would the policy said, that’s do so, and Putin will abandon its policy. We need like a tube of toothpaste to squeeze it out of different components. And so that is for Europe to give up to 1/5 of the energy consumption? Costs nothing, virtually nothing. Because it is an organized wholesale market, which has a beautiful substitution. You don’t even need 2 degrees in the autumn to lower the temperature in Warsaw or Brussels. But most importantly, you have come to this, that is your mission. We are not asking you to go to our land and die for our freedom, to die for our territorial integrity. That’s our job. But if you will be buying oil to Fund the Russian occupation of Ukraine, it will be difficult fight for the victory. More lives to ruin. Realize, please, that your policy is the transformation in fact the policy of supporting the Russian occupation of Ukraine.
But Europe has now a lot of their internal problems. And recent statements by European leaders on the “Nord stream-2”, to me, demonstrated how they relate to the subject of trade with Russia.
– Russia has tries of the European deck of cards to pull out two or three trumps and to build a strong bilateral relationship, which is essentially interrupted relations with the European family. And this is why the voice of the European family becomes less expressive, less symbolic, and moved the tools to the political correspondent of the pair Russia-Germany, Russia-France, etc. It also complicates the mechanics of our relationship. I think that does not add optimism to the current state of relations between the US and the EU. A lot of innuendo around this, a lot of added characteristics which in my opinion is not even present in this policy. But this household is cluttered with thought, and it also complicates the Ukrainian passage on these complex political corridors. So I think, despite quite such obvious disadvantages that occur in European politics, the understanding of a coherent European policy is always cheaper and more effective disaster policy. Europe will continue to walk the road of hard negotiation, and consolidation of key European views.