The Deputy Minister of the temporarily occupied territories and internally displaced persons Georgy Tuka in the second part of the interview “” has told about the return of ORDA and the Crimea, on the personal role of Vladimir Putin to the Russian aggression against Ukraine, about the possible blockade of trade with the Russian Federation and on the case when the military tried to “order” his murder.
“Apostrophe” is: How do you personally see the shortest path for the return of Donbas and Crimea? As I understand it, we need to split these processes?
George Tuck: Yes, they are completely different situations and things, and territory, and the conditions of return. Completely different. To begin with, I am not a supporter of a purely military way the return of the Donbass. First of all, our army is not so powerful to enter into a confrontation with the regular Russian army. Yes, now our guys are fighting, do it selflessly and heroically. But once again I urge: you have to remove the head out of the sand and openly to say, that against us is not valid aviation against us now are not missile weapons. Are we now to fully fight back in the event the use of such weapons? I have my doubts that we will be able to give a full resistance in the case of Russia’s use of aviation and the strategic missile forces (strategic rocket forces — approx. ed.). I’m not talking about nuclear weapons — just don’t believe that it’s possible to use. What makes aviation? To get a taste of enough to see the video from Aleppo.
So we need to constantly increase the power of our army. Anywhere from this neighbor we will not get to. And he, unfortunately, will not disappear. Russia is the enemy. The enemy is terrible. The enemy is crafty. So we just need to prepare. And this takes time. The time and money. A lot of money. For any army to any country in the world — is a huge financial cost.
There are other ways that I would like to see. This is the way of external impact on the Russian Federation. Sanctions that would have forced her to commit those or other actions.
Can long to tell each other, real or unreal, because there are different points of view. Some say that the great dope is so deeply embedded in the minds of Muscovites are ready to fight even in sandals and a balalaika. But others say that still the fridge wins the TV. I am a supporter of the second thesis. I witnessed flourishing, decline and destruction of the Soviet Union. So I remember how it when on the shelves, which are now bursting with a variety of products, is only seaweed.
Once Leonid Parfenov had the TV show — “the other day”. So, when my son watched documentary footage of the period and saw the stores behind the counters are saleswomen and empty, nothing but seaweed… When he saw those fights at two in the afternoon — in the first minutes after the opening of liquor stores… He looked and said, “Daddy, it’s all staged?” “What is there! say. Is a chronicle, documentary”. “Yeah, well…” he says.
Son is thirty and he can’t understand how this could be. And I remember it well! I know that it can be. It may not be as quick as everyone would like. But the Russians are in the majority, too, have become accustomed to more comfortable living conditions.
The most optimal variant for Ukraine and, perhaps, for the whole world — is generally the cessation of existence of Russia as a state, in this form, as it is now.
— But if to look objectively — how high is the probability that it will happen?
— You know, frankly speaking, from my point of view, the probability of more than thinks about it the vast majority. I remember 1990-e years. Remember how this education was bursting at the seams. Ural Republic, Bashkortostan, Tatarstan, Karelia, Chechnya and then — I remember it perfectly. As banned flights of civil aviation over the territories, because “this is our territory”… So never say never.
I understand why at the time, Yeltsin managed to keep this colossus on clay legs. From my point of view, it was a huge mistake. But in the Western world was concerned — and continue to be concerned now with the fate of the enormous potential of nuclear, chemical, bacteriological weapons, which has this Imperial country. That’s what scared both European and overseas, our allies and partners. If not for these fears, I am convinced that the end could be much faster. Economic, first of all, sanctions, and political influence. And in no way a weapon.
— Of personalities Putin really tied the whole story, in your opinion?
— I am a supporter of sober assessment. On the one hand, should not be underestimated, as wrote Lenin, “the role of personality in history.” On the other — it should not be overstated. Indeed, Putin has played a huge role in the history of modern Russia. And to deny it would be short-sighted. The main problem developed over the past few years: he has managed to build a “collective Putin”. So he was not in the beginning, when Yeltsin on new year’s eve actually gave him the powers of the President of Russia.
Over the years spent in power, Putin very quickly and easily revived these sentiments Imperial great-power chauvinism, and even hurt over the collapse of the Soviet Union in the bargain. In this way, modern Russia is very similar in external and internal signs on Germany after the Versailles peace Treaty. Then the disappointment of the Germans, offended underestimation, disregard — all is now 100% reflected in the behavior of the Russians. Putin uses it. And he was able to build on this feeling of statist policies.
— As Hitler once.
— Absolutely. And it is a great tragedy. Was it inevitable? In my opinion, Yes. There are countries that are just in their mentality, culture and historical experience are unfit for Western style democracy. Russia is one of such countries.
— And Ukraine?
— Ukraine — no. Even if you look at our historical experience: never in Ukraine is not respected, and did not obey the Tsar. We had the experience of Hetman. It is our misfortune, in some ways, but the saying goes “two Ukrainians — three hetmans” — it’s about us! So what we have in common? We the mentality is different!
Even look at what is happening in our countries after the elections. How many after the elections in Russia say that Putin is a criminal, scrounger, thief, no matter how many materials or print — still “his own, he is ours, he’s cool”. We even on election day, I don’t think the ink dried on the seals on the ballot — and start yelling: “What a g*UPE we chose!” Moreover, we have chosen! He went, he voted — in an hour and goes: “What rubbish!” We are perhaps the fundamental difference. I can’t say if it is good or bad. But it is a fact. From him not going anywhere.
I can not imagine in Ukraine, a leader who would respect a nation. Not part of the nation, and the nation. Not a nationality, I emphasize, and the nation. Well, I can not afford such a person to imagine. Sometimes it seems that even if God himself took the oath of allegiance to the Ukrainian people and took the Mace, became President the next day he, poor man, so much would just have been listening!..
That’s for sure! Russia is really quite different — with his already resurrected the cult of personality…
— So. By the way, at the local level — as this cult exists among them. The level of governors.
— And if such “public adoration” Putin will not — as you have noticed, it is not eternal — it could be the catalyst for the beginning of those processes of destruction of which you speak?
— Can. Not necessarily, but maybe. You know, I love documentaries. And recently I watched a very interesting program about the continuity of power. Very interesting there was an example given of Stalin. He failed to transfer power to Khrushchev. After Stalin’s death, the whole system began to crumble, they began to destroy each other. Again, on different stages, at different levels. The system of power began to crumble. Will Putin to transfer the power, I don’t know.
— Wait and see… going Back to the way of liberation of the territories. We must develop an army, strengthen your defenses, at the same time, we hope that we will support the peace that will continue and increase economic pressure on Russia… What we need to do to return the Donbass?
— I would not want to use the words that have just started talking… Where we now struggle with the oligarchs?
— Talk shows on some TV channels.
And even already on TV there. Because it’s not true. Not “pie”. Now, if, perhaps now Lutsenko made a submission to MPs, and the fight against corruption would not have said that. It would not be true.
Now, I certainly would not want to such extremely important issues for Ukraine, we just “spoke”, as it quite often happens now. Therefore, even when only began to work in the Luhansk region, I talked about this and continue to say: we should not fight with the oligarchs and monopolies. To start a reform was necessary, from my point of view, not from the police reform and judicial reform. The fight against corruption should be conducted not merciless and irreversible. When I hear that I need to chop up, stop stealing, well, it’s complete idiocy, which, frankly, is not desirable in General and of speech and conduct. Shot in China at the stadiums every year — and everything is not affected.
— Anyway, next year there are new stadiums…
Yes. To keep man within the framework of morality and law can not the cruelty of punishment, and its inevitability. It is absolutely different things. Therefore, it is necessary to ensure the inevitability of punishment. Unfortunately, we don’t have a huge problem. And a lot of troubles.
According to the latest reports, the shadow budget in the state is comparable in magnitude with the state budget. No state, no underscore! in this mode, can not exist. And actually talking about that or the kleptocrats will kill the state, and it will cease to exist, or the state will kill kleptocrats.
I want to believe that after all this kleptocratic mold we can handle it. Although this is a very difficult task. The vast majority of these “bortsunov” who say that one day all will fight, or the most Rabinovich with his “I make in a year will show you all” — at least, it is simply not serious. It’s inexperience. And maybe just brainwashing.
— Or the pursuit of the electorate’s sympathies… are you also of the opinion that if we do in Ukraine conditional Singapore, people from the occupied territories to reach?
— First of all, I do not believe that in my lifetime here in Singapore. The potential of Ukraine, of course, enormous. Despite 25 years of rape, still a lot left. And our main problem is not the presence or absence of the potential, and the fact that for 25 years, a whole generation brought up in the conditions, shall we say, loyalty to corruption. That this is the main problem.
I am convinced that such a social phenomenon as corruption in General — not individual any corrupt officials, and a social phenomenon — are undervalued by society. If you’re going to vote, selling their vote for five cans of corned beef, you have no moral right then to demand to fight corruption. Because you yourself already — corrupt. If you sell your vote for 10 kg of buckwheat, then you have to understand that the one who you your voice is sold, not altruistic. He will do everything possible to regain those 10 kg and 10 — to make money.
Therefore, it is necessary to answer, first of all, for himself. Instead of yelling, everything rots from the head. This is a very primitive and simple attempt of self-defense, nothing more. If you don’t give bribes, they will not take. But what do you want, if you want everyone to give? And quite often, our citizens and provoke. Remember, as with the former GAI…
— “Can’t we talk?”
— Elementary. By the way, my friends once told me: they had an interesting case in Germany. They were speeding and they were stopped by a police officer. The policeman was a native of the Soviet Union — as a child his parents were taken to Germany. They started “the let’s make a deal”, 100 stamps he was offered (with the fine of 300 marks, I think). He refused. And my friends, him with this reproach: “well, damn… You don’t own, or what?” And he’s rather calm and balanced all explained on the fingers. Look, they say, I now receive a salary. I have such social benefits. I have a medical insurance, and… if I now take 100 marks and I get caught in this, I’ll lose it all. Even if you count the 10 years, I get, like, a million of these various subsidies, grants, social protection of my rights totaling million. I’m not saying I’m an angel. I just know how to count. Give me a million, I’ll take it and go on. But what am I going to risk millions for one hundred brands?..
Is about the inevitability of punishment?
— So we have ourselves to deal with domestic Affairs, even extremely important, and wait until the Donbass return? Or what?
— Not quite. First, let’s agree that changing a person’s world takes time. Especially if we are talking about such fundamental things. Can’t change the worldview of the person for a short period of time. People can hide. Can hide their feelings, their views — but not change them.
In order to change the views of people, first of all, you need to communicate with him. With the idea of scoring can only be fought with another idea. This is proven throughout the history of mankind. As soon as any destroyed Christianity — Christianity flourishes. As soon as any destroyed each other, Catholics and Orthodox Jews — there are those and others, and feel great. As soon as any fighting communism — it exists. As soon as any fought with the Nazis — exist!.. So with the idea you can only fight the idea. And in order to do that, you have to communicate. Need to convince. If we stop communicating, how we want to win the hearts and minds of those people?
According to independent surveys, about 80% of information from government-controlled territory, residents of Donbass uncontrolled territories receive from their neighbors, acquaintances, friends, relatives, who from time to time to travel to the controlled area. I have a question first: what kind of positive information that these people can bring on uncontrolled territory?
— Well, in comparison with what happens in the uncontrolled territories, perhaps even at us, life is much better!
— Yes, especially now. But three years have passed!
Secondly, those people who live on the uncontrolled territory, are under really heavy pressure of propaganda. Because it is not information. This is the real propaganda.
And, unfortunately, the scum who run these quasithermodynamic, took the most sacred — for the children. When I look how they arrange the celebration of these “young Zaharova” (former pioneers) when I watch a documentary, not fictional, and documentary video in school during the festivities arranged children’s play, in which the “heroic “volunteer” will captivate and kills the hated Bandera-dill”, it seems to me that the people who perpetrate this fraud to shoot a little. Them should be planted.
— But they didn’t kill — and thus fall under the Amnesty…
— Not a fact. I told you from the beginning that it is necessary to develop the terms of the Amnesty. It also does not mean that everything will fall under the Amnesty. Goebbels, for example, personally no prisoner not shot. But I suspect, despite this, he had a reasonable sense of what the gallows, he is unlikely to escape.
One of those considerations which I have just quoted, first of all, I believe, was made a huge mistake. First, the people who staged the so-called blockade (occupied Donbass — approx. ed.). And, secondly, the power that allowed this scenario to implement.
And legalized it this…
— So. I think this is a huge mistake. The negative effects we already have. And I have yet to see how we will get out of this situation.
— What negative consequences can you name?
For example, according to the latest report of the Minister of economy, the country has lost almost a billion more foreign exchange earnings. ‘ve already lost. This is the first.
Secondly, we voluntarily, actually with their own hands handed over control of “orcs” about 50 powerful enterprises that we controlled. Yes, they are located there. But the management of those enterprises controlled by the us. Financial flows were controlled by us. I understand that it is quite difficult to understand. I first could not understand how this can happen.
Control over enterprises in the occupied territories?
And how is that possible?
— Here under Brovary is a Coca-Cola factory, please tell me it is whose? You control it? I control it? Semenchenko? Perhaps, after all, the Coca-Cola company? Perhaps the last option, isn’t it? This is one example. Another example: Mr. Firtash sitting God knows where, so he is not in control of his enterprise? So we’re controlling them, or does he? The same pattern occurred in the uncontrolled territories. And we actually voluntarily relinquished a number of its businesses, placing them under the control of “orcs”.
It was easy enough to predict that not all companies will use them as intended. Predicted from the start that the mines producing anthracite, will simply be destroyed, closed and flooded. What we are now witnessing.
Further industrial enterprises. The vast majority of their products are not very interested in Russia. Anyone in the world does not need an extra competitor. And to supply its products to foreign markets, these companies can not. Because they want authentic Ukrainian documents with certain solutions — like border service, customs, and chamber of Commerce. They are such documents can not provide, that is to foreign markets their products they send can’t either. What does it mean? If some of them have modern equipment, that equipment will be dismantled and transported to Russia. More outdated equipment will just cut up for scrap.
And all this was absolutely predictable. It is transparent! It does not have to have some academic education to figure that out!.. But no. We lacked the political will to stop this lawlessness on the part Semenchenko (the people’s Deputy from “Samopomich” semen Semenchenko, one of the organizers of the blockade ORDO — approx. ed.). I believe this is an unacceptable error on the part of authorities. And, unfortunately, we have what we have.
In this case, if the flooding of the mines in the Luhansk region began six years ago, the flooding of mines in the Donetsk region began only now. And it began because of our senseless actions.
— In your opinion, should the organizers of the blockade to be responsible for these losses, as claimed by senior government officials? Or, since the state legalized what did the blockade, about any responsibility and the question?
I’m not a lawyer, it’s hard to judge from the point of view of the law. But I am sure that from the point of view of morality any liability they incur. Moreover, I see that now they are going to continue blocking, directing power now to block flows of trade with Russia…
— Where it may lead, if they manage?
Well, first, I still believe that you have already learned from the experience of Donbass, our government will not allow it. Because, frankly, it is difficult to imagine the consequences for Ukraine, to which it might lead. If you take into account the fact that our nuclear plants in the vast majority (more than 70% of the capacity) to operate on Russian fuel. And the spent fuel is sent for disposal in Russia.
I understand that directly Semenchenko do not care. In the Crimea this fuel will not go. By turns Mr. Parasyuk, not taught Gribovichi a landfill, you may want the spent fuel to Lviv for him to bring in for disposal?..
Before you take any action, you need to think about the consequences. I am not the person who in all circumstances holds the umbilical cord with Russia. God Forbid! But before you break the umbilical cord — and I agree that we need it — we need to prepare.
— Since those times and blamed no one to anything not prepared for these three years…
And I have many questions these criticisms are accepted. But this does not justify such actions. I would be very understanding if demanded training to the severing of ties with Russia. But I didn’t see training requirements! And yet, I want to make a mistake, but we still ahead of the heating season, which we need under the new circumstances to survive.
— I think it will be very problematic? Although, if you already shut off the hot water — it is significant from the point of view of forecasting difficulties with heating…
Summer be without hot water this stuff. But no heating when the outside temperatures of 20 degrees — it will be a little worse.
Is the pursuit of PR by the same Semenchenko? Or something worse?
— I think this character would deal with intelligence agencies. From my subjective point of view, there are two components: narcissism and self-promotion on the one hand, and on the other the game in favor of one of our well-known oligarchs. Also, who is now abroad, who are deprived of property rights for some assets in Ukraine — we are talking about PrivatBank, we are talking about “Ukrgasdobycha” and various other… That’s from my point of view — Yes.
— And how the siege plays into the hands of Kolomoisky?
Yeah, well… I thought the oligarchs — the characters are more pragmatic.
— For very little funds it is stripped of major assets for another oligarch. This is like spiders in a jar. That’s just an old Ukrainian proverb has not been canceled: Sirs fight, and at lackeys forelocks crack.
— You said that the return of the Crimea — that’s another story…
— First, the probability of the return of the Crimea by military means — from my point of view, too complicated.
— But you don’t consider the military way and in the Donbas.
— I did not put as my personal priority. But the fact that it is possible, I do not deny. Possible. The question is, at what cost. Here I have these chatterboxes, who shout “war!” a asked: please tell me how much you need to put lives in order to achieve your goal? A hundred thousand, a million, five million? What figure! And take on this responsibility. All! This whole discussion ends immediately. All! Instantly go to some common questions about space flight, about patriotism, about anything…
— But in Crimea it is almost impossible. What are we to do?
— I talked about this already: never say never. I believe that in his lifetime to see the collapse of the Empire. It was during this period we will refund the Crimea.
— You have friends there, family?
— God spared me, I don’t have any relatives in the Crimea or in the uncontrolled territories, nor in Russia. So I feel very comfortable. And I personally absolutely do not care about the presence or absence of visas with the Russian Federation or some kind of trade/lack thereof, because I have no any business relations. I have only thought of their actions or inaction are responsible for a large number of people.
— The recent initiative to change the format of the ATO in another format, in your opinion (the conversation took place before the media published the relevant document, approx. ed.), brings us closer to the return of their lands, their people?
— I do not think so.
— And what was it? For what?
— The fact that, based on the law on combating terrorism, on the basis of which passed anti-terrorist operation, to direct the anti-terrorist operation of SBU. When it all began, it really looked like small bands, 10-20 sostav, which can handle qualified “alpha”. But very rapidly as a result of inaction and betrayal of local authorities these pitiful handful has become a very powerful gang. And was taken completely reasonable, in my opinion, the decision to use the Armed forces of Ukraine. But the use of APU is not stipulated by the law on the fight against terrorism. This is the first.
Second, on the basis of those circumstances that we have now, probably 95% of the load in order to get on their shoulders the Armed forces. The management of the SBU has no experience, no relevant education, no relevant skills in order to manage such military operations. That is, it must be done by qualified military, the military by profession. So I think it is absolutely appropriate and justified the change of leadership of the operation to liberate the Donbas, SBU on the APU.
With regard to approach or not approach. I was one of the first who saw with my own eyes and read the bill which had been prepared in the security Council. Assembled a group of experts, about 10-15 people, which included me. And we were provided for review and discussion. It was a lot of comments. After that, the document was presented, not as bill, but as the concept is fundamentally different to the deputies of the Verkhovna Rada.
In what final form it will be in the hall of Parliament — I do not know. I do not participate in its development. That’s why after all the discussion will be the document, I don’t know. That I have seen, some fundamental differences, in addition to creating operational coordination staff subordinate to him all civil-military administrations, I’m such an amazing saw.
— Actually we are talking about aligning with the reality some formal moments, right?
And “bonus” is the full legalization of the presence in the Donbass APU?
— Absolutely. As for point of view (the head of the Donetsk VGA — approx. ed.) Pavel Ivanovich Zhebrivskyi that it is necessary, on the contrary, the military is subordinate to the heads of CAA, I think it’s complete nonsense. Is he, perhaps, overreacted. Because I do not want someone else to obey, except the President.
Perhaps even from the point of view of management, I would consider the advisability (or inadvisability) of the Donetsk division of CAA into two parts. Now in the Donbas there are two powerful administrative centre, Kramatorsk and Mariupol. Geographically they are very removed from each other. Therefore, to ensure ongoing management of such large but remote from each other powerful centers, in my opinion, may not be effective.
Especially in war…
— Well, of course! We are talking exclusively about situational decisions, not about changing the territorial structure or the constitutional order of Ukraine. Solely from the point of view of management.
— Have associates you have on this issue?
I do not know. I don’t want this question somewhere to pedal, to push. It’s just my personal point of view. By the way, it is worth noting a very interesting point: we have two very large and very powerful city, which are located from each other at a distance of only 60 km away, But from the point of view of management was entirely appropriate solution is to create two areas. I mean Zaporozhye and the Dnieper. And perhaps today there is a more detailed look at the organization of management of the Donetsk oblast.
We now live in a terrible time. When scared, not only at the front but also deep in the rear. When daylight shot of important witnesses or blow up in Kiev, the car of a senior officer of the Main intelligence Directorate… Tell me you knew personally Maxim Shapoval scout, who was killed in the explosion of his car in June?
— I was acquainted with him. But I can’t say, unfortunately, that knew him closely.
— Do you think we need to get used to what will happen where until recently, it was relatively safe?
— And we are doomed to get used to! This will happen as long as we don’t win a war with Russia. Or not losing her. And while the war continues — we will have to get used to it. There is no country in the world that would be fully protected from the manifestations of terrorism. There are no such! In Germany from time to time there are terrorist attacks — and, let’s be Frank, far more bloody than ours. The attacks occur in Britain, and in Israel and in the United States of America. So I’m not advocating that we now start to hang all the dogs on our intelligence agencies. Absolutely not.
It’s another thing that the victim of a terrorist act became a man. I believe that from the standpoint of external manifestations is, of course, a terrorist act. But actually it is killing a particular person. Because if there was a goal, as we say now, to demonstrate, to intimidate, don’t want to scare anyone, but there are many ways to make much more terrible and more bloody provocations.
This was a demonstrative destruction. Maxim was a very iconic figure among the intelligence agencies. Both domestic and Russian. We can’t talk right now, unfortunately, all that our intelligence agencies are doing — and very successfully at times — but believe me, they work. And the other side, of course, didn’t like it.
It was a demonstrative murder of a certain employee of special services. Say demonstrative, for it is done it such a revealing way. If there was no purpose to make such demonstration, the person could just gradually slack off, and he quietly died from the poison for a week or two.
On the other hand, such people as Maxim, taught to care about their own safety. It’s their specialty. It’s not the Chairman of the CAA Tuck, which was quite irritating protection that it was assigned there, in the Luhansk region.
— Now you have protection?
— A threat you have ever received?
— You want exclusive from me some to achieve?
— It would be nice.
— I don’t want to be honest, to reveal all the cards, because journalists gets blown to bits. I will say this: I know about one time when some people ordered my murder.
— It is also in the Luhansk region was?
— No, already in Kiev.
— It is linked to your current activities?
— Maybe, after all, though little details will tell?
— I don’t think it is worth doing. Then we all settled without even involving law enforcement. It just so happens that I talk a lot with the military, since the days of volunteering. And by a happy coincidence, my acquaintances in the military and asked certain people to have me hit.
— It is generally a serious problem — the use of combatants in various illegal activities and crimes: what you tell raider showdown, as recently in the region…
— In General, this problem was predictable. We saw something similar after Afghanistan in the Soviet Union. People come back from the war to a certain extent psychologically traumatized. For them there is only black or white, although for ordinary people between these colors there are many shades. They can’t get a job, they begin the problems in families… and enjoy a variety of villains.
Remember the grenade under the Rada in August 2015? It threw the man who us in the East defended! But it was used by scum — whatever Patriotic slogans they may camouflage, to the patriots, they have nothing! These bastards just pointed at it and said, here it is — the enemy. The result — four dead young boys natsgvardeytsev. I believe that the person who threw the grenade should be treated. And those who incited him to do so, to prosecute to the fullest extent of existing law. And in all other cases.