For more than three years of existence of the volunteer Fund “Turn alive” for a long time and greatly expanding the boundaries of its activities. Providing the Ukrainian army with expensive night vision devices and thermal imagers remains the main direction in which the Fund works, but other than that he is engaged and lots of other things — from the purchase of vehicles for the military to work on the resumption of broadcast of the Ukrainian TV channels in the frontline and even the occupied territory.
And the founder of the Fund Vitaly Deynega no longer limited exclusively to “Turn alive” and trying to not only shut the flaws of the state in sphere of national security and defense, but also to change the situation. So, for several months he works as a consultant to the Independent anti-corruption Committee on defence when a non-governmental international organization Transparency International Ukraine. About the level of corruption in the defence sector and how volunteers and activists can contribute to its overcoming, and also about the situation at the front, the balance of forces and the prospects for the liberation of the occupied territories, the “draining” of Ukraine and who really benefit from war, Vitaly Deynega said in an interview with “Apostrophe”.
Lily Ragulka: the first question: what is happening at the front? What are the trends in the area of ATO observed?
Vitaly Deynega: Any new trends there, to be honest. There are separate attempts from both sides to a “grey zone”. If somewhere someone someone faced foreheads — starts Avdiivka industrial zone, Svetlodarsk arc, something. And so, in principle, none of the parties is not decisive advantage. That is, we can’t tomorrow to take Donetsk, they are unable tomorrow to take Slavyansk and Lisichansk. They also interestingly? Mariupol, Avdiivka, Lisichansk interesting to them.
Since none of the parties can not reach a serious goal, just something that it’s not even the tactical level and the operational level of conflict between the trenches. Clashes in industrial area, the transfer of control over a piece of “gray zone”…
But while this continues tagamet, separable aren’t wasting any time and continue to bechervaise, dig. In this they are much ahead of us.
— And we?
— We are all a little different. We are building a little army, recruited contract employees, replaceable those people who have left the army now. Once recovered equipment…
Now both sides don’t know what to do. And here, in principle, plays for us. Because Russia is under sanctions, and the DNI and the LC, I do question how they are able to withstand the test of time. They may be quite viable. View. And while they are reminiscent of the new tumor, from which even a biopsy can’t be taken. So you have to wait and see — it will grow, not that it will happen next.
— But they continue to talk about their claims to “grow.” Kiev going out regularly…
They can tell you anything! These people have no right to vote, they are not actors. That Zakharchenko some power? Without it the Russian army, without them planes that we fly along the border permanently, to any serious action not. And, in fact, not the fact that these planes too, it will help.
— Anyway, Zakharchenko continues to “rejoice” wild statements. And if I can understand why he announces “March on Kiev”, then why did they need the whole story with the proclamation of “the Ukraine” is a complete mystery…
Look, I’m in a psychiatric hospital never worked. I don’t know why a mentally ill person says something.
Russia has removed the odious characters such as Arrow and Beard. Zakharchenko there are very specific Russian military and political strategists, who play a role. But this monkey will come out and sometimes blurt out something — and they are all there, in Moscow, their heads enough…
Let him speak. He must do something to PR. When you can not do anything, can’t people’s lives better — you could at least tell the tale. That’s what makes the Russian regime over the past three years, if not longer. Putin people instead of the refrigerator put the TV.
— Are you saying that these moronic statements you don’t see any subtext, hidden meaning?
— I’m not a geo-politician and not a diplomat, that’s even if they deal with meanings.
I can only see that we have a certain parity of forces, and while neither side has a decisive advantage. If a decisive advantage was the Russians — they would have long been forced to the federalization, to fulfil all the requirements that they put forward. But they are not able to do. And what they are able to force us through the forces that they have today, they are not satisfied.
And we are not satisfied with the terms on which they now offer to the world. Accordingly, we have a frozen conflict.
— For how long?
— If time and sanctions will squeeze Russia so that she would be willing to sacrifice Crimea, for example — the conversation will go differently. On the other hand, Ukraine, too, may be ready to make concessions to Russia if we come to power Pro-Putin political forces. And that could happen in the next election.
Against them, and against us to some extent, playing time. And both sides are being depleted economically. Someone- because of the sanctions, and some because he has a piece of the region cut off, and there is a war that needs money, which no. Accordingly, it is a survival game.
It is, in fact, the worst war that may be protracted war. As said by sun Tzu, war is likes determination and victory. And war, which is delayed cannot be victory for anyone. It destroys both sides. Any good attacking side can only bring a quick war. Russia did not succeed, so in the Donbass, she does not get what he wanted. Although part of the Donbass Putin is a tool… But Russia got the Crimea, because had there strong, beautiful and fast war.
Sorry, we can’t do 5 days, like the Croats to liberate Donbass, not to mention the Crimea. I can’t yet. Accordingly, we do not attack. It would be very stupid, not having the strength to get into a fight to get in the face.
— Do you think the forces we still don’t have?
— Let’s just say if now will come the Russians, with available forces and means it will be difficult without losses, to clear the Donbass. Therefore, we now need to lift weights and learn.
— Are we doing this?
Yes. But not as good as I would like.
I know you quite a long time engaged in the study of corruption in the defence sector.
— What can you say about the level of corruption in this sector — considering all that he had learned when he began to cooperate in this direction with Transparency International? Where it most?
— I can say that we have several issues that need to be reformed.
One of them is the reform of the SBU, in which the security Service needs of the body for knocking down the dough with the business to develop same secret service. That, finally, reform of the SBU, the political will of the authorities there. Therefore, there is a chance that someday it will happen. After 5 years we can already see some consequences of the reform.
Another pressing issue is the reform of “Ukroboronprom”. And here I yet do not understand. But the question of purification, and to enhance the efficiency of “Ukroboronprom” is, in principle, matters of national security.
In fact, Ukraine is capable of producing so many different types of weapons. Yes, we can’t do this cunning military electronics, as States. We don’t make UAVs a strategic level such as the us, which run from the Mediterranean sea, flies all over the country and come back… If Ukraine today and make a drone that is able to overcome such distances — it will be completely vulnerable to enemy weapons.
But we are able to produce many different types of weapons. In the end, we are among the ten largest exporters in the world. And a lot of what we are able to provide for themselves.
Therefore, the issue of reform of the “Ukroboronprom” is now, perhaps, the most important. I would put it on the same level with the reform of the Armed forces, which, I think, of reform rested solely in the Sov leadership. Because APU, in contrast to the “Ukroboronprom”, no draws financial interests.
So, if there is these three things — reform of the SBU, the reform of the Armed forces and the reform of “Ukroboronprom” — we can, after some time, 5-10 years, to claim the liberation of Donbass by military means. Even considering the fact that you can go to Russia. Because if this is all the change we can be strong enough for Russia to afraid to attack us directly.
— How can you talk about the reform of “Ukroboronprom” or even about the study of the level of corruption in this structure, if it is almost completely closed?
— Yes, it’s a big, huge problem — the existing in Ukraine system of secrecy. We have a lot of things are classified. And the criteria of secrecy is very often subjective. They are not spelled out in any normative documents — is simply the person who determines what is secret and what is not.
But even though “Ukroboronprom”, the state enterprise was already working on this secret stuff. There is another problem: we have a very regulated market. That is, if tomorrow I want to make a drone, for example, and sell it to our army — I just can’t do it.
Because in our reality to make a quality product is somewhere between 20 and 30% effort. All the rest is paper, bureaucracy, walking through the rooms, even bribes — all in order to still get in the state defense order. The problem is that while this is so, we have none of the foreign investors will never discover some little factory.
Look here. We have a phenomenal market. We have a war. This war every day eats guns, ammunition, equipment. But no Western company said:., let us in this market will earn. We will build you ammunition plant and will sell ammunition. Or we’ll build you a plant for the production of scopes, guns, military vehicles — Yes, anything!.. Wheeled vehicles some special… Yes, we have a KrAZ something started to do, but it’s all ours. The West does not come and does not go down.
— But really… And from domestic production, at least something can call?
— Born of this war project, I can call a success, for example, the UAV “stork” that began to buy defense. And that very little happens — and only in the fourth year of the war. It is very slow! If we don’t want this war fought by our children and grandchildren, we need this time a little faster.
— What to do in the first place?
One of the overarching issues is the change in the system of classification. I’m not sure that such a large part of the state defense order must be classified. The question that needs to be revised the whole system, revised and formalized criteria, and then revised for legislation. Because the current legislative framework allows to commit abuse. It allows, for example, to cut open the defense tenders. That is, a company may go to submit the best bid — and the result is simply not to fulfill their obligations and fill up the tender. Accordingly, the supply for the troops is delayed by several months.
It is therefore very important to conduct a comprehensive review of the legislative framework and in General the whole system of classification. And after that we can declassify the GOZ (state defense order, — “the Apostrophe”).
— What will give us the declassification?
If we declassify the SDO, as is done in the States, the UK, where you can on the website of the Ministry of defense to see how much they bought the planes, which ones and at what price, respectively, will be simplified and the market is liberalized, prices will fall, there will be a competition… And the same defense will be a choice: cheaper to buy and more, or for the same money, buy something of better quality, although in smaller numbers.
And, therefore, it is already possible to play, there is competition. Already some Western companies to enter and start to offer something to our army.
I think we should go down this road. Otherwise, this war will be for us too bloody complicated. Because the technique is very important. Since prehistoric times, technical superiority was often decisive in wars. Even in 1941, the war was a war of technology. Now, even more so. Today to fight only infantry is ridiculous. The infantry can be built unless a defensive guerrilla war. But the release of the Donetsk no tanks, no electronic warfare, no drones, no high-precision weapons will be very difficult.
— International organization Transparency international has some levers to influence the situation in the defence and in other spheres? Or all you can do is to admit the existence of problems?
— See Transparency International, at least, pushed through a story, as ProZorro. So, they are able to achieve great results. And it’s a great result, I agree. For all the shortcomings ProZorro, the level of corruption prior to its implementation and now are two totally different things. Yes, through ProZorro also held some very dubious tenders. But they are fewer. And they are now seen. And this is a very big step forward.
Question — in the following steps. We always want more results. We think that will work ProZorro — and alive! Enter e-Declaration and begin to live!.. And this is just the tools that will produce results in ten years.
Well, from the e-declarations, we were really waiting for fast results. That declarants at least ask where they got it all. And what could be in ten years?
— What will give an electronic Declaration? Well, look: all declared crazy money. But if someone subsequently, the state will grow twice — then it will issues arise. Because in ten years you can see that the person had at the time of the introduction of electronic Declaration. And it complicates it a game. This does not mean that they do not get out but get out it will be harder. To get out, they will need some new solutions. We also find what to answer. It is like a war. Did you do the step you made toward the following. Further — again your move…
The same defense. The establishment of an Independent anti-corruption Committee, where I work — it is a step in the fight against corruption in the defence sector. I think the countermeasures will not find? Find.
— And how are you going to fight corruption in the defense sector? That can make non — even international — organization?
— We will write a report. Reports will contain recommendations. We will show first persons of the state, so they know then not to say that they didn’t see it. Those reports would then be to go to Brussels and Washington. Then it will take time. The promise to give is easy. Worse, when that promise will start to ask. And ask, we will not. After six months on the implementation of the promised Ukrainian authorities will ask people from the West. So sooner or later their promises have the power to perform.
— Do you really believe that?
— If this were impossible, we wouldn’t have no matter of e-returns, no ProZorro or many similar things. I believe that everything is fine. It will be stretched in time. It will not give the result tomorrow. Unfortunately, we have very few people understand. We have too many people want to choose Lyashko and live great the next day.
— You outlined the main problematic issues in the defence sector, the areas needing reform. What else can you say about corruption in the defense industry?
Now we have a ready — made study aid, which gave us the West, and what should be done to the West we gave her on, and by the fact that it has been used effectively, and that there were no positions that we frankly don’t need… Because we got a lot of help from which is used very little, in fact.
But in the West, put a tick that helped.
— Yes, they were off. They gave us $ 12 million drones Raven. They say: “All that we gave,” all we say “Thank you”, and these drones are not used because of our war they do not fit.
— But someone at some level decided that they — exactly what we need. He needs to answer for it?
I don’t believe in punitive methods. Because you will carry one head — on its place will grow another. I believe (and this, by the way, experience the same Singapore) in the construction of the system. I believe that we need to change our institutions so that this will not happen in the future. To punish past someone? Well, okay, we spend a lot of effort, time and someone is going to jail. What?..
Although in this case — with international assistance — will not sit down, because under our laws there ain’t no crime.
The question is not whether to punish all the bad. The question is that we should avoid this bad option. To help prevent them from happening in the future. Because the Ministry of defence we have — not a bad Ministry, however. It is possible to have different attitudes, but they are pretty good guys actually. There are a lot of normal people. Just somewhere to help. Somewhere it is normal people, but shovels. They need to plant, to explain that we need to introduce, for example, SAP or any other accounting system, which will allow you to push three buttons on the computer and say, “Here are all your Western aid, that its distribution”…
— And this is not so far? How do they report to? Or no one reports about the assistance?
— Now to assemble such a report, the need to attract a bunch of people and to make great efforts. Actually, I’ve been some, shall we say, not the last people in the General staff, the defense Ministry — where tables are just littered with these papers, of which they are somehow trying to sculpt something. This is not the case, it can’t be. Any commercial organization for a long time so not working. Even we in the Fund, if necessary, a statement of the brigade to do, it is done quickly enough. Because we have a database of acts of transfer and acceptance, someone that received one, two and you’re all set.
The defense Ministry does not. At least for international assistance. If tomorrow will come and ask — they will give an account. But that report will be done by thousands of calls down, then some clerks will collect one paper, will rise above, above, above, and this will result in some kind of report that will be relatively far from the truth. But to answer a couple of questions, will spend a bunch of human resources — and not the fact that the information obtained will give a comprehensive picture.
— What can you say about the efficiency of the distribution of foreign aid? Earlier the situation was very grim… And now? Better a little?
— Depends what it is…
First, it is still very often done manually. When we had the Marines come out to the front, and they had no technology at all — they took and gave a lot of “hammer”, for example. Decided that for the marine corps, relatively speaking. Plus a few other genera and species of troops, these “Hummers” got. But this approach of “patching holes”. I understand that during the war on a short-term period is correct. That is, if there isn’t, and people need to send — you have to give something. The question is, what then is to redistribute and to do otherwise. But nobody does it.
Therefore, the “hammer” is distributed as-is, so and so. With that, in fact, the jeep needed every combat, without exception. Most of them already or bought cars and drove themselves or were driven by volunteers. Because the battalion commander, chief of staff, chief of intelligence, some commanders, in particular, company intelligence — all these people should be fairly mobile. And it would be nice to have some kind of public transport. But with little public transport it can only be a Car that is constantly breaking down, being repaired “so-and-so’s mother” and scrap… something Like that.
In addition, there is a problem with the repair of these “hammer”. Our military somehow, these new types of technology are perceived as something alien. And if we have a GAZ-66, URAL, VAZ — this is a “native” equipment, it is integrated into the system, they know how to repair and so on, the “hammer” is something alien. Relation to it is somewhat different. Accordingly, if we treat international assistance, it is just these “Hummers” at some point, everything will break, and no one will fix it.
And the issue with their repair is very challenging. We got them with the old rubber that has razlilas — because we consciously took them b/ear.
— Because b/ear “hammer” we could get much more than a new one. Therefore, we took b/y. But absolutely did not care about their service. And some of these machines had to be repaired almost at the exit of the ship. At all almost had to immediately change tires. And we didn’t even have the keys — because Americans have not millimeters, and inches, and they are all nut — inch. I’m not talking about the parts that were not there at all…
Therefore, a very large number of these “hammer” just now is being repaired, laid up, on the civil HUNDRED. And somehow this subject is difficult to move. Everything moves very slowly in terms of having to “hammer” became part of our Armed forces. So, in the end, military schools appeared the profession “driver “hammer”. Not only the Minister of defense of Ukraine on parade on it went…
That’s really, 230 “hammer” gave us — and I would be very interested to know the statistics of how many of them are now actually on the move.
— Any idea?
— I think less than half. Maybe even less than a third I don’t know. But definitely less than half. It’s really those that you can sit down and go. And not worry that it will break after 50 miles or 100.
— With “Hammer” clear. As with the distribution of the different international business help?
— Night vision devices. They are fairly strange, so to speak. Although there is a good explanation. Them give more units, which were held specialized exercises with the Americans. But the question is that night vision devices are needed to all units. And if one battalion of such devices 200, and the other 10, I don’t think it’s right. There are battalions which they did not see these night vision devices.
Besides, very often these night vision devices were given without bindings. And the joke of this device that you can attach it to a helmet or gun and can shoot, because you have free hands. If there is no fastening — it is just minus the minimum of 30-50% of its effectiveness. In addition to shoot with a night vision device, the machine shall be equipped with a mount for this device must be equipped with a sight, because through the night vision device according to the mechanics you can not shoot, you’ll have a blurry front sight or rear sight, or both. The next moment — he doesn’t like flashes. It is his spoils. Therefore, we need a muffler.
That is, if all of these things on the machine — mount and night vision device, the collimator and silencer — it is already possible to work. It is a little bit different level of effectiveness. But very often it is not.
— Well, drones. They are spread out pretty evenly. But, as I said, these drones just don’t fit for our war — therefore, they are little used.
— For the second time we remember them. Why do they not come to us?
Because they are limited technically and very weak. They are somewhere in the 5-6 km fly, then the signal already becomes so that you see nothing. This is the first.
Second, these drones can not withstand electronic warfare, they are easy to lose. And because of the high cost of soldiers are often afraid of losing them. Actually it is a myth that if you lose a drone, you have to sell the apartment to offset the cost. It is not so. Hemorrhoids but it is very serious. And the soldier 10 times will think him to fly this drone or not to fly.
In fact, our Ukrainian Leleka — much more secure. He has more chances of survival in a normal battle. Plus, he fights better with EW. He warfare are not completely protected, as the American military strategic level military drones of NATO, but quite tenacious. Under normal pilot with smooth hands “Leleka” may be a relatively long time to fly at the front. Yes, if it be muffled — this drone will return. But it’s better than if he fell after he drowned.
With drones that we have given the Americans, it will not work. So Raven s very little used. Because they are very easy to lose. And they’re pretty close to flying.
— Now widespread public perception that the region is not clear because you don’t want. Because war is profitable. What people think about you?
— Donbass is not free, because I can’t.
— Still can’t?
— Honestly, I’m not a fan of our President. I think it is my personal opinion — that he has certain financial interests, there is corruption which is the big questions… But I don’t believe the story about draining Russians in Ukraine, about the secret dogovornyak. Because if he was, the signs of this fixed would be much stronger.
Poroshenko personally, I saw three years ago, but we cooperate in certain moments with the presidential Administration. And so the people who work there, and the information that comes to me from the AP, it suggests that there is actually no fixed. In short, I do not believe that Poroshenko agreed with Putin for the factory in Lipetsk and now merges thus Ukraine.
Yeah, maybe the power in some degree interested in a long war. But anyone who says we don’t take Donetsk, because he does not want — he does not understand that we are not currently able to do it. That it is purely a military question. It is a question of forces and means. And now we have them in such quantity that we could take occupied territory, no.
Yes, we are much stronger than in 2014. If we go on the offensive on all fronts, we will have success. But I’m afraid with the amount of forces and means that we have now, we can just get the next transfer.
— Because Russia will not allow us to move forward?
— Remember that we are exactly 3 years ago. We moved away from the border with Russia, as it is not able to hold her back — we shot out. We have surrounded Donetsk, cut it off from Lugansk, from supply lines — but then came a considerable number of battalion tactical groups from Russia, and we have arranged the transfer. And then they unblocked Donetsk, and we got the first Minsk agreement.
— So, while we have to wait?
— Yes. It is necessary to restore trunks, restore your tanks, buy new trucks, the army can move quickly, to train her, to develop its own production, purchased high-precision weapons, to allow a significant proportion of items purchased by staff and the defence Ministry, produce a greater number of companies… within reason, of course. It is not about to let each grandma to buy a machine and churn out ammunition in his yard. Although, if anything, ammo is very easy to do. And they come out, by the way, better than factory. Because if you have good scales you have weighing accuracy of the powder is very high. And, therefore, the accuracy of the shot will be much better. That’s why every sniper prefers to roll themselves cartridges myself. Because if the plant in the cartridge will fall asleep for a half a gram of gunpowder more, the bullet will either fly or not fly. And the sniper has only one shot. And that’s what he was. Their own hand-made ammo is definitely better than those couple times bought defense for snipers.
But the war we can’t win. We need to restore the MIC to let investors, to reform the Armed forces and the SBU. And preferably do it before our children are born grandchildren.
Read more on the “Apostrophe” in the near future.