Commander of the National guard of Ukraine Lieutenant-General Yuri Alleroj in interview “” told about the battle for Lysychansk in 2014, the introduction of NATO standards, and reforms in the University and when will the war in the Donbass.
“Apostrophe”: Winter, former battalion commander of “Azov” and now MP Andrew Biletsky has made the sharp statement in the address of the command of the national guard. And transferred to the GPU documents which, according to him, indicate that NSU corruption and serve as officers of the separatists. What can you say about this? What you do relationship with Biletsky?
Yuri Allenov: Biletsky is the MP, which is now busy building his political career. And platform for the implementation of its plans and declarations was the “Azov”. “Azov” today exists on two levels. The first is a military unit, where there is really a lot of people who believe Biletsky. And the second is a Civil case “Azov”, which is watched by young people. Thanks to this component it has the ability to position himself as a political leader. Not today, I have a personal relationship with him, not at him, no anger.
And after all that I can say about those papers that Biletsky was transferred to the Prosecutor? His charges against the command of the NMU at all?
All those statements and facts verified the Prosecutor’s office and SBU. This is all done. Moreover, we requested that this audit was conducted. Because we try to be as open as possible.
Even in 2016, the law, according to which all purchases are made through Prozorro. There are some positions related to a state secret. And everything else goes on the site Prozorro. It’s all in the mind, a comparison with other military forces. We never exaggerated the suggested price.
The results of this test were already published somewhere?
— Biletsky in his address answered the chief military Prosecutor [Anatoly] Matios. Was another audit, this time of the interior Ministry. And Biletsky of the aforementioned facts, almost nothing has been confirmed. I say “almost” because that was one situation on the procurement of tents. But it must take into account existing prices and proposals that we received. Old tents were made over 9 years ago, we were offered cheaper. There, where already the thread has rotted, and everything else, and repair kits are not… And we bought new. And these new were more expensive.
— It is logical.
— Unfortunately, at the time of tendering, the quality is not a major factor. Although the choice, as for me, it would be wiser to first look at the quality and then on price. And the scoring system or evaluation criteria, I think, needs improvement. Therefore, with respect to these tents, there were differences in the approaches explain how my financiers and audit of the Ministry of interior. The result — all procedures conducted in accordance with the law.
— In addition to “Azov” the national guard is part of the battalion “Donbass”…
Yes. In the composition of the NSU also today there is a division “Donbass”, there is a battalion of Kulchitsky. And they are part of military units. That is the state it was in at the beginning of the fighting — when the volunteers who had the desire and the desire to protect the state, went to war, and every war, as wanted, in different ways — have gone down in history. Now is the time for military units with clearly defined functions and capabilities.
Of course, we changed the organizational structure, brought them into the military units, had additional military training in all directions and the criteria that must be met for armed groups. Today they are fighting. “Donbass” in Popasnaya is located, the battalion Kulchytsky — in the industrial area of the Town. Undergo regular rotation.
— Battalion “Donbass” was also rather odious commander semen Semenchenko. Avoid any conflicts with him?
— With regard to Seeds Semenchenko — it is also a political figure. And I honestly think it is complicated. I first crossed paths with him in Slavyansk. I then said “Donbass” arrived to the subordinated units that we manage. I remember very well the day we met. It was late evening, about 22 hours. He came to me, we have a conditional there the staff was… I told him: “Good evening! Who are you?”
He’s in the Balaclava was or not?
— No. In Balaklava it just for the people went before the cameras… So, ask him: “who are You?” He then harshly stated… And he was like “Why are you with me so say?” I then told him about myself, that I gradually went from cadet to General, from stage to stage. And in order to converse with him on any military subject, I need to understand at what level it is. And there is no. It is something out there told me that he studied in a military school somewhere and for some reason never finished.
— However, there are those who believe that without him, the battalion “Donbass” would not have taken place.
— In war it can be treated differently. To say that he is so well-managed, properly. In many cases, the unit was supervised at the time of Filin, chief of staff battalion (Lieutenant Colonel Vyacheslav Vlasenko, now — commander of the 46-th separate battalion of special purpose “Donbass-Ukraine”, — approx. ed.).
You know, there’s the truth of war. When in Lisichansk we started to go — there was a fight. We had nothing, we are on the buses and Jeeps attacked the village. To Pervomaisk was, Lisichansk, killing my commander [21-th separate Krivorozhskaya] brigade Alexander Radievsky…
We took the 51st brigade Mat one tank and two infantry fighting vehicles — and buses came from Severodonetsk. It so happened that the tank was only four shots, the BMP was leaking diesel fuel and it (the BMP) was not working… They came in and immediately went out. About 200 guardsmen launched an attack on the Lisichansk without support (on buses and on foot). They began seriously to fire. It was near the gas station. There’s a sniper killed the commander of the brigade, commander of battalion, contractor…
The battle lasted more than four hours… I Radievsky was talking to in 10. Then, unfortunately, the management of the fight was carried out using a regular mobile… And when I called at 11 — he already answered…
It was hard to understand what is happening there. It is only then began the reports, we contacted other officers. And learned that in this battle, we lost four killed and Deputy brigade commander (Alexander Piskun, Colonel of national guard, Deputy brigade commander Krivoy Rog units 3011, was captured on 23 July 2014 — approx. ed.) was wounded. This happened in four hours — I was told that people went back, but not enough for five people. Although confirmed data about the four dead.
And after some time I called his mobile, it was not difficult, obviously, to calculate. And whoever was on the other end introduced himself as “Cossack Sergei” and says: “Here is your Colonel is on the table — the wounded…” it Turned out that the Deputy brigade commander was a very serious shrapnel wounds to the back, and they wanted to export to Russia.
— What’s it called, if you wanted to take?
— Call because we were at the command post, there were Muzhenko Victor Nikolaevich, the head of the ATU. 95-I and the 24th brigade of the APU and my — 3011 [military unit NSU] and recaptured South of Lisichansk… the city was the Central hospital morgue. It has been speculated that the people we were missing, taken away. All saw that they were lost, they are simply not carried from the battlefield. Such dynamics was that did not. Lisichansk then surrounded so that escape was difficult. Even mined some areas… And this “Cossack Serge” asked only one thing: to be given the opportunity to go. That’s why he called.
At the same time by mobile phones, these rogues began to require relatives of 15 thousand dollars for the body Radievsky. They knew that he was the commander…
— A Deputy brigade commander?
— He was in very serious condition. The hospital had no electricity. The situation was critical. And then I semen Semenchenko has set the task… 24-th and 95-th brigade of the armed forces stopped the militants on the steep slopes near Lisichansk. And they — the battalion “Donbass” came to the city. Went through the private sector, from the Western direction, at night. Entrenched. And reported: all we have established here. Because in the North of Lisichansk we had to depart in connection with losses and lack of support.
We also managed to get on the doctors of the hospital, to search I hooked up the patriots — they began to give information. He even attracted someone from Severodonetsk. And told me that our injured Deputy brigade commander preparing to export to Russia. And that the hospital was guarded by fighters from the Caucasus.
And really, people went to the hospital. Armed guards hospital ran out. We then found in the morgue of the body of our guys and the Colonel. And then golyakov (Alexander gulakov, Deputy chief of the Central territorial administration of NMU public safety, one of the defendants in treatment Biletsky to GPU, at the time of the events described played an important role in the rescue of squeak — “Apostrophe”), he was a civilian at that time, came… Time was on the clock. They drove from Lisichansk almost to the red Estuary (now the town of Lyman, Donetsk region — approx. ed.), and thence to the chopper. was taken to Kiev (now the city of Dnieper — approx. ed.). Where he was on the operating table. Still a couple of hours and we would have lost it…
I tell you all this to the fact that Lysychansk was a landmark and Semenchenko. He, too, was there. And then they took some kind of database with a bunch of property and a settled unit there.
— Let’s discuss the structure of your talk. You joined the National guard 1.5 years ago, confirmed the desire to implement the NSU NATO standards. How’s it going? What for this time have changed the National guard?
— Here is not limited to a statement of facts with a list of achievements and problems. Today our country is moving in the direction of European integration. When we are faced with external aggression, realized that such a powerful enemy as Russia, will continue to put pressure on us, and to seek opportunities of influence will always inflate ethnic, religious problems, something else… And the unification of Europe will give us the opportunity to obtain military aid.
And the fact that we took a course on European integration, greatly angered Russia. They can not accept the fact that across the border they will have a country which will abide by European principles and approaches. The place of Ukraine in Russia needs not a European country, and a buffer zone that will keep its citizens. Otherwise, the Russians will explode sooner or later: what is Ukraine doing good, them bad? That means the government is bad!
Now a lot of talk is that we need to introduce the NATO standards. But we are not talking about copying. It is, rather, the direction of movement. I spoke with experts, military and even political spheres, because we have the NATO Office in Ukraine. At the end of may they held on the basis of our Academy (National Academy of National guard of Ukraine, — “the Apostrophe) is a serious seminar. NATO officials have contacted us, we helped organize…
Brought together representatives of NATO countries, direct military attachés of NATO countries and countries that are not members of the Alliance, and together with the head of the NATO Office held a seminar, which declared our commitment to the European integration, recognition and compliance with their standards. Those that suit us and which we will strive. And however, have identified consistent ways in which we would like to obtain help from them in order to be able to realize them.
I always repeat: it is not necessary to copy Germany or the United States. But — we choose the key rules to be followed. It can be adopted, certain requirements to clothes, shoes, weapons, means of communication… And be sure to review them. These standards — more than a thousand. And to say that we are now all copied, so ready to go to NATO — this is complete nonsense.
Today on the background of the integration events in the country, we need to change the emphasis of issues related to consistency in military formations.
— How is this manifested in practice?
We declare that we plan this year to change in accordance with NATO standards management structure. That is the Main thing management of NSU will be adapted to their standards. We are not talking about copying names. We are talking about the interaction of military forces of NATO and Ukraine, we were guided by a single system approach to organization communication, management, logistics system, operation of the headquarters. And just in this direction, we now do some work. Together with the NATO experts working group to assess the process.
By the way, we developed the organizational structure of the headquarters, handed over our Western partners, and they sent to Brussels. The answer is not for more than two months, but we are not able to wait that long, have a program and go forward.
We clearly understand that we are very different from other countries, we have our own historical heritage, a private Ukrainian mentality. Important vision: what end result we want and how are you going to this result.
For example, we are changing the system of circulation of documents, bring her into line with NATO standards. We do this using the potential that we have and the funding that is. And to the extent planned.
I say: “what we conceptually have gained, we tried immediately and executed. And over time, we will show that it said did said did… And if you do financially will help us!.. We don’t need your money, we need training of our experts, your experts, preparation for learning a foreign language, etc…. With your help, we’ll just do it faster.” Our Western partners really like it when they do not ask for money. I’m not asking.
And how ‘ bout now?
For example, in February 2016 we have declared the change of the system of training troops. And today, we’ve completely redesigned training programmes in different specialties. We have introduced the institution of instructors in military units. Developed staffing changes. He founded the Institute of master sergeants, have already begun the release of sergeants in these areas. Chief Sergeant, Sergeant major of the National guard has already been introduced with the main Sergeant of the Armed forces and planned for the future, so he passed the basic training course sergeants abroad to continue to propagate and contribute to the development of the Institute of sergeants in the National guard.
We invited advisers from the US National guard of the state of California, we have advisors from Romania, and in the future — and from France and Turkey.
Last year we became observer FIEP — the Association of the gendarmerie forces and police of the countries of Europe and the Mediterranean sea. This year we submitted an application to become a full member.
— How is it really?
— The gendarmerie of Romania became a member of the FIEP before Romania joined the European Union. We have all the chances to repeat this journey this year!
Ask to be proud of? The same Institute sergeants. The military chaplaincy, which is all declared and only we have introduced… In fact, there are many things that we are not only declared, but also managed to implement. So we have something to show to our foreign partners.
What you now need most money?
— A lot of everything.
— For example?
Among the declared changes in the first place we have the change management system. Control system is control points. We fully eliminate now system, which was developed in Soviet times. It’s an old radio station, it’s an old system approaches, which are still trying to control the Russian security services — all this is necessary to liquidate completely and to build a new system.
We are talking about modern control centers, such as those that are based in permanent locations or on moveable bases. We have the ability right now to go to the video conferencing area of the ATO. There we have a modern vehicle, there is communication associated with satellite TV…
(At the time of emergency in Balakliya, when exploded the warehouses, we were among the first organized protection of public order, the protection of property of citizens, the evacuation of the population, provided food for people through our field kitchens, psychological assistance).
Modern radios are very expensive today. Therefore, it was necessary at the time to manage the battle with mobile phones or use a cheap radio. I have in the ATO zone was his call sign. And when I was aired on the radio, there have been cases that for 10-15 minutes after that, the square in which I was covered by artillery. It should not be. Therefore, communication is extremely important.
Equally important is the system of training of troops — a training of trainers and, most importantly, the development and modernization of training centers. We need modern training centers, new curricula and new training equipment that will give you the opportunity to obtain professional skills and not to waste ammunition and not to destroy the potential of the technology. Need trainers that allow you to draw military weapons and military equipment only in the final phase of the exercise. But it is expensive. For example the system simulated combat MILES in the US costs about $ 5 million.
“We need modern training centers, new curricula and new training equipment that will allow you to get the skills and not to waste ammunition and not to destroy the potential of the technology,” says Yuri Alleru
— Very expensive!
And multiply even at the dollar — a tidy sum in the hryvnia is impossible, right? So I ask them: let such a system. Invest in your production, give us a finished product. And they are going at it. This year the United States promised the aid of a variety of equipment in the amount of about 20 million.
In the Old (the village in the Kiev region — approx. ed.) we plan to roll out international training centre in three directions. There will be training of specialists who will carry out law enforcement functions, the training of special forces and the training of peacekeepers (who are able to perform peacekeeping tasks in different places of the planet). Will the layout of the city, will be the killer houses, there are standard layouts of the rooms where it is possible to work out algorithms of action in case of combating terrorism, the protection of public order and the like. It will be an imitation of battle, fixing fire damage on both sides.
And Western partners are ready to Finance?
— They will come and study here. And have already expressed their willingness to assist us in the implementation of these plans.
In addition to the training system, training base, these all modules and simulators, we move to an entirely different plane in the logistics system. We do today centers that will be responsible for quality requirements of products, the transparency of trading. In the context of logistics today is to create modern models of military camps, the decision of questions of residing of the personnel.
On the anniversary of the quick reaction brigade, for example, after we congratulated the personnel on the holiday, began with the guys to chat. In the 1st battalion of over 600 people. The crew still created, but the staff already performs the tasks in the ATO area. Right now 200 people from this team are in the zone of the ATO.
— Which line?
— First, second, and third.
And the first too? Because you accused precisely in the fact that the combat team is fighting, as the guys promised initially.
— There is, already exists today. I remembered about them, because we have rapid response teams, no gym, no dorms. Where to live family members? We started to develop the infrastructure that will give the opportunity to quietly serve their families and children develop, as they do in modern conditions and do sports, and combat training… This is a complex questions.
— Is today the state budget will be able to pull the implementation of such ambitious plans?
— The fact of the matter is that the money we take, we use very transparent. Even detractors will not be able to reproach us, because we’ve eliminated the shadow scheme. According to our calculations, to create from scratch a new team (like the one we are in Gostomel did) takes about 4 to 5 billion hryvnia. The NSU budget for the year is 9.6 billion hryvnia. That is, half of the funding. And we from the beginning of the war has created 5 new teams! Just imagine — where to take money?
— I also wonder. And where did you take the money?
— Four teams we have organized on the basis of already existing military units — the battalions, where the shelves were. And this is with zero at all. And so if we will not help until you are ready, we will move a very long time.
We use any potential assistance: foreign, volunteer, members, ordinary citizens who have the ability and desire to help. There are systematic approaches today, which help us to survive. They say: “How much money you spend on advertising?” Have you seen how many posters are hung everywhere? And we are not a penny spent! It’s all help.
— You say that by the end of the year, the structure of the Main Department of NSU will be changed. How dramatically?
— 70 percent. I have already said that we do not copy the “NATO” standards management structures — we go further and do more. Because they have some problems, we have other.
For example, the document circulation between structural units should occur: pushed the button — and got the necessary information on every soldier in every part of military formation. Today we have this no. We have computers don’t even have!.. And I believe that to create a new structure, to declare it and anything under it is not to — at least silly!
But if I tell you that I have a plan on the territory of NSU to put the building — eight floors up and two — down, where to place a new, modern command and control center with new infrastructure? For the construction I need 120 million, 80 — the “stuffing”. While they are not. But we do projects. And when we provide the funds — we will know clearly what to send them. Today we create an automatic control system. I think that by December I have a new modern brigade will be in the Department have tablets and we will see where every soldier is located (particularly on the front).
We gradually come to what has long been operating in NATO countries. But that takes time and money. We’re all over the place.
— What other new directions, projects that do not need such tools?
— Today the country has not perfected a system of psychological rehabilitation. And war syndrome is complicated. And today we began psihotrening complex. That is, fighters who are on the front line, will undergo diagnostics. Then when they come back, work with them, bring them out of this mental state, trying to resozialisierung… we Have a full plan for the modern psihotrening complex.
— We are talking about what finally will be provided with centralized psychological assistance to participants of the ATO, returned from the front? You all will be a drive through the centre?
— Yes, we’ll do it gradually. And even more — are we going to do teams that will travel directly to military units and to work there. For these needs we buy this year two buses. Have you seen our buses and canteens, by the way?
— No.
Such nowhere else. Imagine: several hundred people are at the heart of the city. How to feed them? Where they go to the toilet? And we do these complexes that people sit, eat, leave, follow each other, I don’t need no litter, no need to go to bowlers. We have these things implemented today. And all thought, we make a study of similar experiences in other countries where something your invent…
In addition, we have already developed samples of the new forms. Have thought through every detail. Including new symbols and hats and caps and winter hats. We tried to Troll in time for those winter hats that they are not such… (volunteer instructor from Israel Zvi Ariel criticized the command of the NGA for the purchase of fur winter hats is much cheaper ill-fitting fleece — approx. ed.).
And I understand why the trolls. On a fur cap, a helmet will not pull!
— No… Rather, the reason is that in Israel this cap is very hot… When I came to your colleague from another publication, turned the cap on himself. And the President, I showed that it is made of fur, not God knows what, as talked about this criticism. Because the President did not believe until he saw.
Okay. But with a helmet what to do?
And she quietly dressed. Omit “ears” to tie the bottom and wear a helmet yourself! Although, if anything, under helmet always, as a rule, puts on a Balaclava and winter he is also a face from cold protect can help. But this hat again, the helmet can be worn.
Back to the form. Blue form is provided for parts that guard the consulates, representative offices, engaged in the protection of public order. Color olive — military operational units.
— Why is it important now? I understand why it is important to change during the war, control system, training system… But changing the appearance of form.
— You know what pushed us to the understanding that it is really necessary? Moving in the direction of European integration, we noticed that there’s a seriously distinguish between the police and the gendarmerie. The latter is a paramilitary formation, or, as we say in military formation with law enforcement functions.
Society green military uniform takes cautiously. We created a division to serve for the protection of public order in the highlands. As is done in European countries? Romanian gendarmes, carabinieri, gendarmes France — they are present wherever people ski and ride, Hiking involved. And they’re organized individual points — commandant. And in addition to law enforcement functions, they still provide assistance and help if need it.
And when we got to Yaremche, Bukovel near, suddenly found that people perceived us hostility. Say: “What are you guys doing? Go to him to atoms!” This is one such hint was.
And when we, during the Eurovision conducted a pilot wearing a new form — we were perceived quite differently. They feel that in blue is a policeman. There is no internal challenge.
This green form, which is at NSU now is the field form. We anyway would have to switch to the new uniform. We are not saying that what is represented here (shows a thick album with samples of the new form) will be all at once. It is clear that it will take time, we need to convey what you were wearing earlier, we believe public money. Color scheme chosen to this period of transition was not so painful. And with the creation of new units, this form will be the best signal to people: this is a new formation created by the people, which is intended not only to fight, but to perform tasks within the country.
— Do you regret that at the time agree to come in, in the National guard?
— And you know, when people ask me: “how are you doing?”, I answer that today with pleasure I go to work. The reason is that when we do all that we are starting a team that is in the national guard, I take great pleasure in…
— What is your experience, your military knowledge tell you about is not are we facing a serious intensification of the fighting — until, perhaps, a full-scale invasion? How long do you think the war will last?
You know, I have this inner feeling that the war will not last long.
— How can she stop? Why?
Or will be found effective leverage over Putin, or it simply will not. You know, you don’t want to die, but it would really be better for all.
Because remember Hitler people took it with a Bang, and when it did not — and the war ended, and Germany has chosen a different path of development, becoming a prosperous country of Europe. In the Soviet Union after a period of Stalinist terror, when Stalin died, began the thaw. And this is the fate of all those “leaders”…
Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union experienced its period of “thaw” — in the Yeltsin era. And it is hoped that the second Putin there now will not.
But this is my personal opinion and hope. As the head of NSU, I can say that, regardless of the legal regime, regardless of political changes in the country, the national guard will develop their potential, to increase the professionalism and combat capability to protect the safety and rights of their people to carry out their functions in accordance with the laws of Ukraine and as efficiently as possible to address various threats to law and order.
