What the Ukrainians think about the future of the Crimea and the Donbass? If forced Ukrainization? Whether it was necessary to deny official status to the Russian language? Why Ukrainian legally there is no war? Where is the Ukrainian economy? But that Ukraine has fallen out of love with Savchenko and Tymoshenko? These and many other burning issues were discussed during the debate “Between the two (ideological) millstones: the identity of today’s Ukraine” during the Festival of communication Lampa.
Experts in modern Ukraine became Deputy head of the “Alliance of the Baltic and Black seas”, doctor of Philology, political scientist Alexei Grigoriev, a former editor of the Russian “awakening”; grown in Daugavpils and living in Kiev since 1993, a political scientist and host of the radio program “the Brilliance and poverty of the Russian world” Dmytro Levusi and counselor of the Minister of information policy of Ukraine Alina Frolova.
The Ministry Alina works on a voluntary basis, and the rest of the time manages its communications agencies, which was created before the Maidan. She was born in a Russian-speaking family in the Donbass, in the city of Kramatorsk. “In fact I was the man Putin took to protect, she said. But my goal in life is to make sure that Ukraine was successful and raised more ethical walls on the way coming from Russia ideology”. The war divided her family, part of which was on the other side of the front and part on the other side of the ideological front (these divisions do not always coincide). “At first it was very painful, now we are trying about some things not to say. I think for older people, which was good in the Soviet Union, this story is not about Russia, but about their youth, they fight for it”.
Alina Frolova considers that there is no need to fight with the ardent adherents of extreme positions on both sides. “We must fight for the minds of those who are not sure about anything is to convey to them the value of Ukraine and Ukrainian identity, which we have formulated as “self-Respect, freedom, creativity.”
Not lost any interest in the Ukrainian situation in the world?
Alexei Grigoriev: No, and the recent extension of anti-Russian sanctions is shown. The international status of occupied territory: there are not flying international airlines, do not go the international court of justice, there did not get visas in any country of the European Union. Residents of Crimea experiencing many difficulties from the Russian occupation. More and more people in the world know that Crimea and Donbass are not the only areas where Russia pursues an aggressive policy. There’s Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transnistria, where the ex-President fled to Moldova almost swim across the Dniester river In Latvia, the occupation lasted a long time, but still ran out. How much rope does not curl, and eventually. I think sooner or later everything will be fine with Ukraine.
Why 86% of Crimeans voted for Crimea is ours?
Alina Frolova: This is by far the drawn numbers. There is absolutely no legal evidence. According to information we have, the turnout of less than 15% of the population. It’s fake, which is deliberately thrown.
Dmytro Levusi: When 25 years ago such a vote was organized in Transnistria, there was an attempt to comply with at least the Soviet legality. I don’t know why this time the Kremlin has done everything so clumsy. Probably believe that propaganda can explain.
What Ukrainians think about the future of the Crimea?
Alina Frolova: Albeit with a delay, but we began to form the state policy towards Crimea, although at first it was more emotional. Opinions were divided: on the one hand, and continental Ukraine was an insult to the Crimeans that they so easily abandoned Ukrainian values. On the other hand, a global study of the National Institute for strategic studies showed how over the past 15 years in the minds of the Crimean introduced the idea that Russia — the native territory, and Ukraine — no. Despite the fact that the Ukrainian authorities have behaved passively, this idea failed to implement, especially because there live many immigrants from Russia of the first generation… But to this day in the Crimea still has a lot of loyal citizens of Ukraine, for which we are fighting.
Crimea is a terrible information occupation. If the Donbas and in the Luhansk region we can reach the audience in the Crimea is more complicated. Through different campaigns we try to show the Crimeans that they haven’t forgotten about them. We are holding a Day of resistance of the Crimea, Russian aggression, the Days of the Crimean Tatars, cultural days… At the international level too there is an active legal work. There are several international instruments on the recognition of Russia’s aggression and occupation of the Crimea is important to show the impossibility of rolling back the situation back. Also the government of Ukraine is working to facilitate the life of refugees from Crimea and those who were there.
Dmytro Levusi: the Main objective of the aggressor — the problem of the Crimea to bring the brackets, to discuss, and the problem of Donbass to be “you have a civil war.” The Kremlin is very afraid of linking these two issues together. Last year on June 1 we held a round table on the problems of children in the occupied territories of Donbass and Crimea, because there they grow in the occupation, aggressive information field, closed from the world. This linkage did not like…
What is happening in the Donbass?
Alina Frolova: I Have in the Donbass — grandmother and relatives. I am on the territories controlled by the Ukrainian authorities, regularly. Get information from the DNI and the LC, which remained part of the family. No matter how badly it sounds, but the Donbass is something very benefited from the incident. There developed a civil revitalization, which can be compared with the strengthening of the immune system when the virus got into the blood. I always thought that my homeland Kramatorsk — dying city, but now it’s full of life and youth, business, ideas, optimism. There are a lot of new people entered in the local authority, and they don’t care what’s going on. There is an understanding that the responsibility for your life and your city are you…
There were a lot of immigrants who assimilated with the local inhabitants, turned out to be that much of a difference in the mentality and values there. So blurred artificially created closed inner ideology of Donbass, which is all the time I sit down with the oligarchs… We got a huge driving force and understanding from other areas, especially Western Ukraine, who had feared (sentiments of Donbas) — now the walls fell down. The external threat has forced to rethink their identity and integrity…
How will be solved the problem of Donbass, if Minsk agreements are not working?
Dmytro Levusi: This is not a one day decision. Ukraine has not abandoned those who are in occupation. I just came from there and saw two points of entry and exit — the village Lugansk and Novotroitsk — the movement is constant. These people refused to pay the pension have the opportunity to enter higher education for children who went to high school there, there’s information work…
Thanks to the help of the Ukrainian society and NATO in 2014 in Ukraine has revived the army. When it attains power, I don’t reject the idea that it will solve the problem. I hope this time Russia will weaken so much that its Armed forces would be best not to hold the Donbass.
Alina Frolova: I do not believe that the Russian army will weaken — nevertheless they have much more resources. But I believe in miracles. After 20 Feb no one suspected that the 21st Yanukovych flee. I believe in Ukraine! Very many Ukrainians have started to rebuild a life without regard to Russia. This is the correct position: to think what we are and not as we confront Russia. Putin has already done everything — he pushed 2.5 million people from the occupied territories. People got up and left without anything, refused the life, money, houses. These people realized that they were Ukrainians. It’s hard.
Are there problems of ethnic conflict and forced Ukrainization?
Dmytro Levusi: these are the words of the Russian propaganda. Can’t say that in Ukraine it was a big problem. Almost the entire Donbass — bearer of the Ukrainian language in liabilities. I don’t know people who don’t understand. And the village in General, Ukrainian. It doesn’t fit with the image of Donbass, which was drawn by Russian propaganda. For example, there is the city of Ugledar of two mines, and near the village of Pavlivka, where there is a monastery in which he lived, the spiritual father of Yanukovych. When I got there in 2007 and asked the local about the monastery, I suddenly people began to respond to the Ukrainian national… No problems there, by and large, no. But 100% never.
Alina Frolova: unlike Russia, Ukraine does not have a compact residence of different nationalities, except the Crimean Tatars. We live more than 130 nationalities — we are all mixed. And the question of language — not a question of nationality. My native language is Russian, but I am Ukrainian. We have a bilingual priori. We do something similar to America — all in one pot. According to statistics, we had 18 was conflicts on national soil for the year. In Germany — more than 300.
What new Kyiv authorities have deprived the official status of Russian language?
Alina Frolova: Is the choice of each country. From the perspective of a long-term strategy — I’m for it, but I think that it was possible to better articulate the causes and consequences of the decision. In a situation when the enemy is at the gate, which is through a language point of trying to destroy your state, it makes sense. Personally, I have not ceased and will not cease to speak in Russian, but it is definitely better to speak Ukrainian, because many around me consciously switched to it. It is not a question of government decisions, and internal resistance. All children will know Ukrainian — and rightly so. For many years we tried to do it slowly, not adding fuel to the fire, but now, when there is a question of survival and the formation of the next generation, sudden movements allowed.
Dmytro Levusi: to be precise, the law of Kivalov-Kolesnichenko gave the official superstatus the Russian language. And unless Russian aggression without it would not have taken place? It started in Crimea already. To say that the Ukrainian language provoked aggression is a substitution of theses. This is retroactively included such a justification.
Alina Frolova: would it Not be — would do more. It was in fact “crucified boys”? Do you know how many Ukrainian schools in Crimea? Seven. And now — none. The problem in the Donbas is that there are no Ukrainian-language press. What kind of harassment language can say, if the only carrier of the Ukrainian language of the Donbass people?! And in General, Russian-language media in Ukraine have not diminished.
Why not declared the legal status of the war?
(Via Ukraine is still Russian gas Ukrainians involved in the Russian labour market, with Russia are in talks in Minsk…)
Alina Frolova: the very fact that Russia is involved in the Minsk talks, and it is its legal recognition of a party to the conflict. In 2014, Ukraine was weak, but now grows in strength. We understand that there are interests of Europe on gas transit, and if in 2014 we abruptly stopped the flow, it would be bad for everyone. Now it will be easier: during this period, Europe and Ukraine has developed alternative sources of supply. Ukraine does not refuse from any of his people in captivity are more than 160 Ukrainian — we fight for each of them. If it needs to Minsk — Minsk let it be.
The status is actively discussed. President and head of the security Council announced the development of a new bill that konkretisiert in words everything that is happening in the Crimea and the Donbass. Ukraine opens criminal case against Russia in hybrid war is serious. The problem is that international law does not define the concept of hybrid war. In the military doctrine of Russia it is recorded that the information component is three quarters. That is, it is not a preparation for war, namely a military component. So, we are still in a state of war, which leads to the death of people, loss of territories, the mass of immigrants… Ukraine is trying to bring in the legal field understanding what the information occupation and war.
Dmytro Levusi: This is only the beginning. International tribunals, too, to some point not created. Already have a suit against Gazprom, to specific groups of people. I hope that once will be condemned the very concept of “Russian world”, as at the time condemned the Nazi ideology.
Alexei Grigoriev: the Ideology of the “Russian world” consists of several components. She says that there is a separate Russian civilization is the best. Although we thought that it was part of the European Christian civilization. That Russian nation divided by artificial borders that is necessary and possible to change by force that is reminiscent of Hitler’s rhetoric, 30 years. And it is the official doctrine of Russia. The whole world is against us, we against the world. The latest twist is that there is a special Russian gene, which is a “Russian world”. This is a dangerous and harmful ideology that became the basis of criminal acts. Sooner or later she will lead the Russian leadership to the process like the Nuremberg. Incidentally, one of the defendants in the Nuremberg case was a journalist Julius Streicher — he was hanged by sentence of the Tribunal.
Re whether Ukrainians, who continue to believe in the Association with Russia?
Alina Frolova: the Law does not prohibit different opinions. We banned the promotion of certain symbols associated with the post-Communist symbols, like the “Colorado” ribbon punishable the denial of occupation. Authorities are not engaged in radical cases, but it is possible this resulted in a negative reaction from those whose relatives have passed through the front.
As for the figures, if before the aggression in the Donetsk region was 45% of Pro-Russian citizens in Kiev — up to 51%, today those numbers have fallen in Donbas (occupied territory) — up to 12%, and the highest — Odessa region — 18%. And even they — not about joining Russia, and for the restoration of relations. Most of the work in this direction was made by Putin himself. Today for Ukraine’s accession to NATO — 67% of citizens (on the territory of Donbass — 64%). About the same for EU accession.
How to revive the economy of Ukraine? What will happen to the destroyed Donbass?
Alina Frolova: we Have ruined and outdated education system that does not produce high-quality specialists. We have a very closed and inefficient economy is lagging behind Europe in 18-20 times. We have the most complex tax legislation in the world, no economic freedom, in the modernization of enterprises has not invested money. It was the economic exploitation of natural and inherited from the scoop resources…
I see no reason to restore the enterprises of Donbass — everything is destroyed, and when cropped, over 120 enterprises dismantled, sawed and exported to Russia — it is necessary to search for a new model. Ilona Mask and “Google” wasn’t thinking about how to rebuild mine in England. We have revived the military industry — it becomes a powerful engine of industrial regions.
We are trying to rebuild the economic model. Our society has written a new tax code: activists came to Parliament, made their way to the tax Committee has drafted a bill, the Committee it supported them, fought with the previous Minister of Finance (she was strongly against their proposals), but today the Minister said: “nothing such a code did it!” Now he is put to a vote! We have a lot of processes going from the bottom — there is better seen as a change of scenery. Changing structure of the economy, disappearing monopoly. With the battle open the sky to hold back the new airline, to de-monopolize the supply of electricity. Oil company, Autogas, which always was unprofitable, with a new team for four months, became profitable.
Why it is not like once-beloved Nadiya Savchenko and Yulia Tymoshenko?
Alina Frolova: Ukrainians do not like the usurpation of power. Ukrainians always react strongly to injustice: Maidan — it was a reaction to the beating of children, Tymoshenko in prison — in politics, so the issues are not solved, the situation in captivity is also injustice. We are more fighting for justice than for a particular person.
Tymoshenko — has his own stable electorate, it was never missing. 10% of the population that consistently vote for it. Plus, she always increases another 5% before the election. This is one of the few examples of successful party building — here she doesn’t deny the talent. Her autocratic party has existed for many years. Any parties that carry meaning and ideology, it deserves to be — let people choose what ideology suits them.
Savchenko was a huge support when I was a prisoner, but she was unprepared for politics. It has not disappeared anywhere — in Ukraine, it can be clearly seen. It is very controversia. Hope works closely with the regions, but in a society dominated by the opinion that she was… not that hooked, but somehow transformed to cooperate with the Kremlin. It emits a lot of messages broadcast by Putin, support his position. I think she either were edited, or was originally sort of thought.
Critical threats do not see this. But that now makes Savchenko is unacceptable to society. Of course, we may become overly suspicious, but if you look at the programs that she leads, they to the week coincide with the agenda of the Kremlin. And it works on the channel, which is funded by fugitive ex-Minister of incomes and fees of Ukraine, the member of team of Yanukovych, Arbuzov. Savchenko is known in the world, and that its position may interfere with Ukraine in an international context, but the majority of the population does not accept its position. Therefore, in her political future, I do not believe…